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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#441

Post by worik »

amiga386 wrote: post #409
arrowsmith wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand corrected.

Truth (in English law) is merely a defence to an accusation of libel or slander, and it is not an absolute defence. If you say or print true things about a person, that lowers their reputation in the eyes of an ordinary person, and you are motivated by malice , then you have still committed the crime of defamation. English libel law is an evolution of the former English law known as scandalum magnatum -- "scandalizin…

> He was never prosecuted for embezzling millions from his company's pension fund.

He escaped that. By dying. Probably suicide.

The walls were closing in

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#442

Post by ionwake »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #405
horizion2025 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

"victims of confirmational bias" dude

tbh thats what bothered me

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#443

Post by nwienert »

esseph wrote: post #436
nwienert wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source being that ridiculous fanfic Cheney movie? You’re even further off than me, even high level CIA was divided, along many other orgs that supported it. Where did Colin Powell get his evidence from? And the OSP? Even if we agreed Iraq wasn’t a good example, it’s irrelevant to the point as I don’t think anyone actually thinks there aren’t powerful and largely behind the scenes figures - defense, lobbying, billiona…

They knew there were no WMD. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/18/panorama-iraq-...

That shows some set of intelligence had some sources that told them they don’t, far from proof of anything let alone anything relevant here. And we know several high up yet largely unknown to the public defense ops claimed the opposite, ie, the deep state.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#444

Post by tjwebbnorfolk »

haswell wrote: post #186
tjwebbnorfolk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a big issue with that particular phrase itself. Although the passive voice is designed to conceal or obscure the actor, which doesn't accomplish anything here. Attributing a suicide to anyone other than the actor starts to appear oxymoronic very quickly. Yes life is complex and whatnot -- that's a given, we don't need a reminder every time anything happens. But really it's the transparent and ham-handed…

> Attributing a suicide to anyone other than the actor starts to appear oxymoronic very quickly. No one is an island. We’re all deeply intertwined/interconnected. We’re the sum total of our lived experiences and without a doubt some have lived far more challenging lives than others and are influenced by factors that would lead just about anyone down a dark path. The grief felt by those left behind is the result of th…

Yes I already said that life is complicate because I KNEW that someone would write this very comment. But reminding people that life isn't simple isn't the PSA that you believe it to be.

Yes, everything causes everything, there is no one single thing to blame. Life is hard and complicated. Every rule has exceptions. Every truth has contradictions. Every one is a hypocrite. The world is big and complex.

We all know this already. We don't need this disclaimer to every statement that anyone makes. At a certain point, it just becomes noise.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#445

Post by jstanley »

thom wrote: post #437
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

The purpose of a system is what it does.

Conversely, https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo...

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#446

Post by amiga386 »

akudha wrote: post #422
amiga386 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to have to pull you up on this detail, as you seem to care about the details. Fujitsu/ICL won the contract to develop and run Horizon. They got a commission on every EFTPOS sale. They paid for all the computers, all the network setup, all the staff training. They literally ran the helpline. If you were a sub-postmaster and had a problem with Horizon, you called Fujitsu. It was Fujitsu that then told you tha…

Fujistu is a business - they're gonna lie and do all kinds of shady things to maximize profits, avoid litigation etc. Nobody expects a big business to be ethical or even do only legal things at this point. It is the prosecutors conduct that is maddening here. They need to have higher standards - it is their job to prosecute actual criminal behavior, and not be lazy in fact checking

Firstly, no, people do expect big business to act legally. Businesses should not "lie and do all kinds of shady things", and it's up to regulators (and those they harm, using the courts) to hold them to account.

Secondly, I don't think you understand the situation if you talk about the "prosecutors conduct". The Post Office itself - a private company (owned by the government at arms length) - was the entity doing the prosecuting. These were private prosecutions.

You're hearing it right. The aggrieved party is also the prosecutor, in the criminal courts. They are not a claimant in the civil courts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#England_an...

The Crown Prosecution Service (who work with the police, act for the government and prosecute most criminal cases in England and Wales) were not involved. In fact, much of the criticism of the CPS in the Post Office scandal is that they could have been involved; they had the statutory right to take over a prosecution, and if appropriate, discontinue it due to lack of evidence. But they did not intervene.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#447

Post by wagwang »

lawlessone wrote: post #351
njovin wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the PO creates a franchise program that they later decide isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor, and instead of revising the terms of the franchise program to make it so, they assume that the participants are criminals and prosecute them?

The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101

[flagged]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#448

Post by 7952 »

horizion2025 wrote: post #358
ionwake wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

Organisations can be fiendishly good at cultivating this kind of unaccountability. The software is managed by a contractor, maybe a project management company, a local PM team all of which focus on the performance of management and maybe budgets and timelines. Then you have some internal technical experts who just focus on the detail but have no influence on the whole. When things go wrong it is sent down a tech support ticketing system with multiple tiered defenses to deflect complaints. At some point it maybe gets to the point that an investigation is started. But obviously it needs to be done by someone neutral and independent who doesn't actually know the people involved or necessarily the technical details. And they are accountable not for outcomes but how closely they follow policy. A policy written by people outside the normal chain of command and no real skin in the game. At some point it reaches a legal team and then everyone else takes a step back. No one ever takes any responsibility beyond.an occasional case review conducted in a collegial atmosphere in a stuffy conference room by bored people. All the structures are put in place with good intentions but just protect people from actually having to make a decision and accept consequences. Except for the poor soul on the front line who only ever has consequences.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#449

Post by worik »

SoftTalker wrote: post #266
whycome wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it a similar case in the USA where intoxication breath test computers are similarly obscured from scrutiny? People have argued that they have a right to “face their accuser” and see the source code only to have that request denied. So, black box.

AIUI breath test only establishes probable cause. If you fail a breath test you are taken for a blood draw. Breath test results are routinely challenged (sometimes successfully) by demanding records showing that the device has been tested and calibrated according to the required schedule.

In my country (Aotearoa) the breath tests are "strict viability ", so proof

You can demand a blood test, but you have to know. Most people do not know

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#450

Post by MaKey »

belter wrote: post #356
aenis wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the book, if you havent already. The senior technical staff was actively obfuscating and lying. Developers knew the system had synchronization issues, operations knew as well, as they were apparently routinely doing manual data fixes in production. Senior engineering staff are the most to blame. They messed up and then covered up. The fact that their management covered up some more can be partially excused by te…

That explanation based on lies by the tech staff, is another variation of the Volkswagen explanation that the emissions scandal, were just some low level engineers. The essence of this story is how the UK establishment can lie, and be corrupt to levels that will shame big time criminals. [1] "...Vennells was the CEO of Post Office Ltd during the latter part of the Post Office scandal, which involved more than 900 sub…

Why is she not in jail?
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