Live data from Hacker News

On loyalty to your employer (2018)

medium.com

441–450 of 466 posts

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you perhaps confusing loyalty to an incumbent regime with loyalty to a nation or people?

Not really. Have you ever heard a saying, "right or wrong, my country"? That's exactly the kind of toxic stuff that loyalty to entities leads to.

Your use of language is imprecise. What exactly is meant by "my country" here?

We have the state; we have the ruling regime; we have the society in question. Who is this "country" that is right or wrong exactly?

If the state, then in the abstract, it is authority without particular directive. So it can't be that.

If the ruling regime, then it can undermine its own authority by demanding people commit evil deeds. But it is not betrayal to refuse to commit the evil deeds it demands. It is the ruling regime who betrays the society it rules by demanding evil. Remember: lex iniusta non est lex.

If society, then we're talking about an aggregate and therefore mob "rule". But who cares what the mob thinks? The mob has no authority.

Betrayal and loyalty can only be measured in relation to the objective good. I agree with you that "my country, right or wrong" might suggest something very evil, but to reject the suggested relativistic understanding of loyalty is not betrayal. You could interpret it differently: I am loyal to the good of my country, regardless of whether my country is in the right or in the wrong. And the good of my country might involve opposing an evil regime or standing up to the mob. That's true loyalty. Obedience to evil is false obedience and true betrayal.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a special form of small company that's even worse. It's the kind where "we're a family". Those are worse than anything a big company bureaucracy / bean-counting could ever be.

Small companies really magnify the extreems. Good ones are really great but bad ones are extra bad. Sadly, they are also nimble enough to switch between them, at least in one direction.

It's more that big companies spend a ton of money hiring HR and developing process to ensure they regress to the mean whereas small ones can't afford or don't yet need that overhead so they don't have that force acting upon them and can go whichever way.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". People - people can absolutely deserve loyalty, and those people can be managers, coworkers, spouses, family, etc. But don't mix the two up in your mind.

>Things don't deserve loyalty. Your company is a "thing". A country is a thing and loyalty to it is called "patriotism". A sports-team or TV show or band is a thing, loyalty to it is called "fandom". Loyalty to an idea or philosophy is called "being principled" or "idealism". Do you believe that things don't deserve loyalty, such that all of these are errors? Or do these examples not capture the sense of your stateme…

Patriotism is as we know a loyalty to real estate. Borders do change all the time if history is viewed from few steps back. In fact, everything changes - languages, culture, traditions and so on.

Where I come from in Europe - they say we have proud history going back some 1500 years. Well before that, there were other tribes, we are same type of immigrants as current waves. We either mingled with them, killed them or drove them away. I am pretty sure genetic tracing would favor the mingling for the most part.

What makes more sense is really what all others say - pick up a specific set of people, philosophy, moral imperative etc. and be loyal to them. Higher concepts muddy the waters with slippery slopes and are unnecessary, just opening surfaces to manipulation.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#444
post #106

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

I do think some individuals much prefer work over family or friends since 'work' relations are professional, formal and regulated while personal relationships lack those and are chaotic and random.

Is that a feeling that might best be appreciated by folks 'on the spectrum'? For me, robotic corporate relationships where my paycheck (which goes to food and rent) might be jeopardized, stresses me way more than a spat with a friend that's forgotten in a month.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#445
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about feelings. It's about making human life possible , as we are social animals. We develop through relationships. Loyalty is a commitment to the objective good of the other, of skin in the game. Loyalty is hierarchical and the particular variety and its entailed commitments depends on the particular nature of the relationship. In a hyperindividualist liberal society, the presumption is basically Hobbesian;…

Loyalty develops naturally in a good relationship. It's a fruit to be cherished, but it's not a goal that you should pursue for its own sake. There's no point in asking first, whether employers should be loyal to their employers or vice versa. The important question is whether they are good to one another. If they are, you might also find loyalty among them, but that's not where the focus should be. Someone who gets…

We must be more precise here. You should be wary of allowing a hermeneutic of suspicion to take you from naivete to outright cynicism. There is a middle path.

If we narrow the scope to employment, there is a variety of loyalty to the common good of the company at work, in due proportion and priority, when you join the company. Each employee is bound in this manner, including the guy deciding your salary or your termination. Otherwise, what are you doing there?

Now, loyalty isn't stupidity. Perhaps this is what people associate with the word when they hear it. They perhaps imagine some poor, gullible, childish pushover. It should be obvious that this is stupid. No, loyalty to a company is a commitment to the common good of the company within the scope of your responsibilities. That's it.

Now, given the nature of at-will employment, that commitment is contingent on actual employment. When you leave the company, your commitment ends. But while you work at that company, you must be committed to the common good of that company. Again, why else are you there? The nature of employment makes this a kind of elective loyalty of utility.

The fact that employers might try to manipulate employees emotionally by misusing and abusing words like "loyalty" in order to exploit them is a different matter. In that case, the employer is being disloyal to the company and its employees. How you should respond to that kind of disloyalty is contingent on the particulars of that disloyalty and the particulars of your personal circumstances.

We have got to get away from this relativist, subjectivist battle of wills. What matters is the objective good.

> Loyalty develops naturally in a good relationship. It's a fruit to be cherished, but it's not a goal that you should pursue for its own sake.

I'm not sure what to make of this. The scope is also too broad to say anything useful here. In friendship, loyalty is a prerequisite for it being a good relationship. Loyalty to a friend is commitment to their objective good. A disloyal friend harms the friendship. How can there be friendship without loyalty?

I suppose a good question to ask is: what does it mean to be disloyal? It is every okay to be disloyal? Disloyalty presumes loyalty is normative and owed. But loyalty is not always normative, because it would be a category mistake. If I work for Boeing, I am not being disloyal toward Airbus, because I have no commitments toward Airbus. But I would be disloyal to Boeing if I were to illicitly funnel work done at Boeing to Airbus, harming Boeing. In the context of friendship, loyalty may grow with the friendship, but being more loyal to friend A than to friend B doesn't mean I am disloyal to B. A smaller glass full of water simply holds less water, but it is no less full than a larger glass full of water. It is simply that there is an order and priority of loyalty in due proportion with the nature of the friendship. I owe more loyalty to my family than I do to my community, but it's not an either/or proposition. It simply means that my commitment to and prioritization of the good of my family is higher (this relates to the ordo amoris that made a splash in the news recently).

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone finds 'the work' to be an interrupt either, to be fair. Sometimes the work is the fulfilling part of life, its not having more traditional societal roles. Not to say family and friends aren't important, they absolutely are, but the way I think of it is this way: When I started working on my own independent venture, I was worried about time. I'm not in a position to quit my job, and I don't think its goin…

I’m curious how you maintain the energy to work those free moments. I find myself too tired from work and my social / physical hobbies that when I do have the time, I only have the brain power to play games or watch TV. In those circumstances, I treat it as a form of self care because it lets me recharge for the next day of work and doing fun stuff with friends or playing hockey or whatever

Yeah, I often feel like I run out of energy more frequently than running out of time.

Optimizing away minor nuisances has helped for me but still I'd love to be able to utilize my time fully.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#447

Meta comment: the situation with employee-employer loyalty seems pretty similar to the loyalty situation in other aspects of modern life like dating/marriage partner-partner, politician-constituent, or friend-friend: you're not incentivized to be loyal and in a lot of situations, you're actually incentivized to not be loyal and to continually look for better opportunities. To me, that feels like a failure of the deep…

It seems similar to slavery. The employees work to produce a surplus and through a system of physical and ideological violence only the employer gets a claim on the surplus.

Even pointing out the facts of this material relationship is considered a thoughtcrime.

Now go back to work “partner”

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, silly me, I should have just starved on the streets until someone recognized my value.

Unless you're in a country that embraced the teachings of Marx, you're more likely to die from too much food than not enough, or a class-based murder spree.

In Americas, the country with more famines is Haiti. In the world is Somalia. Both were victims of capitalist countries, they were never socialists.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#449
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the middle ground is healthy. I'm in my early 30's, I have a job that I get to "create" in (I make video games). > I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its many sights and wonders? Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead? H…

> I would _much_ rather live in a nice house in a nice area with exciting things to do from my mid 20's onwards and enjoy those things for years and years and years, rather than live in a smaller/cheaper/farther out place so that I can retire 10 years earlier and start living. That's a false dichotomy. You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent…

least disconnected from reality HN user

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#450

very strong antiwork sentiment these days. It's sad. The employers are taking a risk by hiring you and paying you, and you should work as hard as you can during business hours. That ethic is very rare in tech but is somewhat common in every other industry I've worked in.

And why is there such an antiwork sentiment?

Housing prices as a ratio of income is higher than it was in the good old days of employee loyalty; pensions have mostly disappeared; most people don't get greater than inflation raises unless they leave. In the US, new hires get paid more than previous employees, due to the bargaining power the former have. We can give work from home, and out of nowhere it's RTO again, because contracts and employee hand books favor employers.

It's not sad at all, it's normal and healthy. Why does it make you sad?

Post reply on HN