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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#441

Post by fjfaase »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

This is true and not at all. Last year, I quit my job, because I was in the process of getting a burn-out. It was primarily because management refused to give me recognition for my efforts. (I dreamed about it last night.) While I was unemployed, I did voluntairy work at a farming coop, physical labour, often simple weeding. Working there for just one morning per week felt more rewarding than working as a SWE. You could always see the results of your work with your own eyes.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#442

Post by DeathArrow »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

>In many professions, quitting means the end of a career - or at least a serious setback; in tech, it means getting many messages on LinkedIn.

That was the case a few years ago, when interest rates were 0 or below 0 and during the pandemics when IT experienced a boom.

I was layed off a the start of the year and it took two months to get some offers. It was much harder to find employment than 3 years ago. I went through more than 150 applications and tens of interviews.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#443

Post by pizza »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #407
dasil003 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 25 years experience, the other thing is environments vary a lot, even within a single company. Things can be dysfunctional for lots of reasons, sometimes due to individual incompetence at various points in the hierarchy, or just systemic/cultural issues that no one has the vision or influence to identify and fix. When you're young and inexperienced, but technically brilliant, it's easy to miss the forest for the…

This leads to a more fundamental observation. That if unionization is so cleary net positive for most workplaces, then it wouldn’t need any sustained agitation campaigns in the first place. As any company that unionizes would near automatically gain a huge competitive advantage.

We generally don't let markets choose rights

Re: The Burnout Machine

#444

Post by tankenmate »

palmotea wrote: post #422
MichaelZuo wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This leads to a more fundamental observation. That if unionization is so cleary net positive for most workplaces, then it wouldn’t need any sustained agitation campaigns in the first place. As any company that unionizes would near automatically gain a huge competitive advantage.

> That if unionization is so cleary net positive for most workplaces, then it wouldn’t need any sustained agitation campaigns in the first place. > As any company that unionizes would near automatically gain a huge competitive advantage. No, your "observation" has a fundamental flaw: There's no general "net positive for most workplaces," because different groups have different interests. Unionization is a "net negati…

It should also be pointed out that it's not just the money aspect. Managing people is difficult, managing people in a stressful situation is really difficult, add a dysfunctional culture (especially if that culture is "imposed" from above) is a pain in the proverbial. Which means managing in these situations is hard work.

Add on top of that that a largish number of managers just plain suck at their job, so being in a union can be useful to push back against either lazy or incompetent managers.

Because there are far more people who leave their manager than leave their job.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#445

Post by marenkay »

If history shows anything than it is that companies will abuse workers if there is no organization and legislation stopping them.

The fact that some get a good salary but way more get a bad one plus a lot of abuse should be a concern to all of us.

You may be lucky and sitting at a big company with nice stock options, a six figure salary. But: for every one of those there are many barely scraping by just making minimum wage, with no hope in sight

I wish the common consensus would be: yes, we should band together and fight for each other.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#446

Post by 4ndrewl »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #407
dasil003 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 25 years experience, the other thing is environments vary a lot, even within a single company. Things can be dysfunctional for lots of reasons, sometimes due to individual incompetence at various points in the hierarchy, or just systemic/cultural issues that no one has the vision or influence to identify and fix. When you're young and inexperienced, but technically brilliant, it's easy to miss the forest for the…

This leads to a more fundamental observation. That if unionization is so cleary net positive for most workplaces, then it wouldn’t need any sustained agitation campaigns in the first place. As any company that unionizes would near automatically gain a huge competitive advantage.

Tell me you've never read history without...etc

Re: The Burnout Machine

#447

Post by krainboltgreene »

echelon wrote: post #427
krainboltgreene wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brother they’ve been threatening that for decades. If that was possible they would have done it 40 years ago.

Wake up. Engineers in other countries are just as good as we are. The only reason we don't hire remote is that the business functions here keep the same hours. You throw unions into the mix and suddenly dealing with the time difference becomes the lesser evil.

I hire remote programmers in multiple countries. I absolutely know that they’re as good as we are.

I promise you that capitalists aren’t really concerned with time differences.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#448

Post by c0redump »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #133
lr4444lr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fairly progressive news outlet attracting staff with certain sensibilties in the NYC area and selling views to people who are the same, the NYTimes board of directors has a vested PR interest in tolerating unions with the large amounts money they have to pay for the privilege. I'm not convinced the company is better served by unionized employees over the rest of the tech scene, which has to innovate to stay solv…

Sounds plausible, but that hypothesis is ultimately belied by the the NYT's actual stance toward their unions (which is hostile): https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-message... > The National Labor Relations Board rejected the New York Times’ attempt to stop the election, alleging the bargaining unit was improper. The company had previously declined to voluntarily recognize the union and immediately…

It’s funny how you have hard facts backed by citation, and the other poster has nothing but vibes and anecdotes. I don’t know if you convinced him, but you certainly make a compelling case for everyone else reading this exchange.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#449

Post by c0redump »

theamk wrote: post #316
jakelazaroff wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these things can't be true at once†: 1. Tech workers are currently treated as well as (or better than) we would be without unions. 2. Unions would cause companies to offshore jobs to developing markets with similar talent. If unions don't increase worker compensation, why would they cause companies to offshore jobs? Conversely, if companies could acquire comparable talent in emerging markets for less money, w…

Sure they can. Imagine the unions that make it hard to fire people - either because of individual performance, or because of downsizing. 1. Tech workers are currently treated well - good hours, good salary, great benefits, etc... (until they are fired / position is eliminated). 2. If unions appear which make firing people hard, companies would stop hiring in US, and switch to India or temp contractors.

> tech workers are currently treated well

I’m sorry, but you must not be paying attention to the current climate. To name one example, Facebook just laid off many workers and explicitly labeled them “low performers”.

Tech companies have already been caught colluding to suppress wages. They are sending as many jobs as they can overseas, and bringing in even more h1b workers.

It is clear to anyone that’s paying attention that they are doing their best to damage our negotiating position so that they no longer have to treat us well (read: fairly)

Re: The Burnout Machine

#450

Post by Balinares »

capitalatrisk wrote: post #440
pdfernhout wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some tangential thoughts and rambles on this to try to get at the deeper issues, first from Jeff Schmidt about his book "Disciplined Minds" which encourages solidarity of intellectual workers: https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ "Who are you going to be? That is the question. In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identi…

What is the point you're trying to make here? Interesting sources but find it difficult to follow.

Apparently, and if I'm getting that right, that there are many other ways in which societies can organize themselves to produce riches and the arguably undesirable one we've got right now is not unavoidable despite being sold as such.
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