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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#441

Post by bbor »

tiahura wrote: post #382
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

[flagged]

No offense (really!!!) but "that's just how people of that race are" isn't a very cool thing to say, my friend. They're humans, just like us -- that's the problem!

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#442

Post by Yawrehto »

kelthuzad wrote: post #433
dismalaf wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a lot of buzzwords but no content. The background behind the current conflict goes something like this: Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived in Palestine during the Ottoman era. Jews discovered Europe was pretty hostile, Zionism was born. Many move to Palestine, buy land and settle down. The Ottomans lose WWI, lose Palestine to the British. The British Empire started fracturing, they realised they couldn't…

>Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived in Palestine during the Ottoman era. Jews discovered Europe was pretty hostile, Zionism was born. Many move to Palestine, buy land and settle down. It's wrong to reduce Zionism as solely a reaction to european hostility, such narrative simplifies the origins of Zionism by framing it purely as a reaction to European anti-Semitism, ignoring other cultural, religious, and politica…

The fact Jews emigrated to the Muslim world is an indictment of the Christian one, not praiseworthy for them. If we're killed every Tuesday in Europe but every other Tuesday in the Islamic world and move there it does not mean they were good to us.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#443

Post by hedora »

bushbaba wrote: post #377
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

Never mind that Hamas will STILL have hostages after the deal is done. That Gaza is ruled by an organization stating they’ll continue doing an Oct 7th again and again. It takes both sides to agree to a better future.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair?

Keep in mind:

Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first.

There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care for them any more. That’s 10 orphaned kids for every Israel civilian casualty in the middle of a famine with no support infrastructure.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#444

Post by hmcq6 »

eastbound wrote: post #374
rzk wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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"Fair" is a funny word to choose. One side is fighting with salvaged weapons and the other has the backing of the strongest militaries in the world.

One side isn't allowed air support. One side isn't allowed food, water or even concrete.

One side isn't even allowed to flee.

So "fair" is not the word I would use. "Moral" isn't one I would use either given that Israel does not have the right as a belligerent occupier to retaliate.

Also I have to ask, all the babies that died, did they also promise Israel's death? Were the babies armed?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#445

Post by Niten »

bko wrote: post #237
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.

Honest question, but why haven't there been "I will sacrifice everything to wipe [country]" generations sowing havoc on neighbors after Dresden, Nagasaki, Nanjing or others?

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#446

Post by Yawrehto »

istjohn wrote: post #417
bko wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aid to Germany after World War II under the Marshall Plan totaled $14 billion ($60 billion in today’s value), averaging $272 per capita across participating nations over four years. In contrast, Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have received $1,330 per capita since 1993, or $161 annually, more than twice the per-capita annual aid under the Marshall Plan

That's a laughable comparison. Israel has been systematically undermining the economic and political independence of the West Bank and Gaza during that timeframe. Gaza had been under siege since 2006. The Marshall Plan in contrast was a concerted effort to rebuild and integrate Germany into the European economy.

Under siege by Egypt too, to be clear, which suggests maaybe the problem is Hamas.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#447

Post by roenxi »

bbor wrote: post #439
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how even in this thread, you have many people - almost certainly very few of whom have no real stake in the fight - bitterly arguing about who is right and wrong (turning it into a fight about US politics as a bonus). Human nature and tribalism really is a terrible thing sometimes. I agree with you, although I certainly hope you and I are wrong. It would be nice to see people let go of past injustices on both…

Not to sound terse, but I think the retort here is clear: morality exists, and it's important that we do our best to follow its guidance. It matters who's right and who's wrong! I absolutely agree that deciding on absolute historical blame for one "side" or another over many generations isn't helpful, but we absolutely need to litigate who's violating whose rights if we want to set things straight. "It's all complica…

> ...was WWII about "tribalism" and both sides being prone to violence, or was it about unjustified aggressors and justified responses?

All of the above. One of the major powers on the winning side was the British Empire, which existed because of a global campaign of unprovoked invasions that was pretty much unprecedented. And there was Stalin, who may escape the "tribalism" label on the basis that his campaigns of political murder were so wild it is difficult to discern patterns.

If we assume for the sake of tradition and argument that the responses were justified it might have been one of the few times in a century that the British were involved in a justified response. A momentous conflict indeed! It must have been unsettling for them. And, in all seriousness, they weren't involved because it was justified. They were acting amorally and it is a coincidence they were on the justified side that time.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#448

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #350

Hamas was offered a ceasefire under exactly the same terms in May, and refused it. Since then: * Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of the Hamas political wing, was killed in Tehran * Yahyah Sinwar, the leader of the Al-Qassam Brigades, was killed in Gaza * Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Lebanese Hezbollah, was killed in Beirut * Hashem Safieddine, Nasrallah's successor, was killed a week later * Large swathes of Hezbollah'…

[deleted]

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#449

Post by verdverm »

worik wrote: post #139

Time to pay the piper. IMO Iran is the winner (least damaged) out of all this. Their proxies are smashed, but the core strength is still the same. Israel has blown all its international credibility. The International Court of Justice verdict will be very interesting. If it goes against Israel then BDS will (should) become the policy for all countries.

Iran has not escaped this war. Both the US and Israel have made strikes within the country

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/consequences-i... (from Nov) | https://www.understandingwar.org/publications?type%5B%5D=bac... (daily report history)

With other conflicts wrapping up, there are people expecting more attacks into Iran, especially by Israel. They are in a weakened state. Their missile attacks amounted to nothing. Much like Russia, they likely look better on paper than in practice. That being said, one nuke from them against Israel would be devastating, but also likely mean the end of the regime

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#450

Post by tptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #350

Hamas was offered a ceasefire under exactly the same terms in May, and refused it. Since then: * Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of the Hamas political wing, was killed in Tehran * Yahyah Sinwar, the leader of the Al-Qassam Brigades, was killed in Gaza * Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Lebanese Hezbollah, was killed in Beirut * Hashem Safieddine, Nasrallah's successor, was killed a week later * Large swathes of Hezbollah'…

Someone briefly left a comment here saying this summary was inaccurate, because of news reporting about Hamas having accepted ceasefire terms in May. I understand the confusion.

At the end of April (iirc), Israel agreed to a set of terms; Qatar and Egypt then gave Hamas a different set of terms, which Israel hadn't agreed to. Note that stories about Hamas "accepting" a ceasefire date from May 6th. The terms today are the same as those of May 27th.

If it helps, it seems like it wouldn't be worth arguing, and easy to stipulate, that Hamas had accepted ceasefire terms prior to May 27th. You could say that the Qatar switcheroo never happened, and it was Israel being intransigent up to that point. That's not the reporting I read, but fine, ok. The only point my comment makes is that the terms they received on May 27th were ultimately the ones they ended up accepting. Given that: they should have accepted on May 27th.

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