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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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441–450 of 493 posts

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#441
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always said a hefty sales tax (50%? 100%? 200%?) on final sale of any product containing just a single Universal Machine which has artificial designs/locks that prevent the owner from replacing any and all firmware/software with versions he has authored, and/or which lacks complete enough documentation of design and interfaces that would enable a knowledgable and capable owner to author his own software/firmware. T…

A "tax" like this is essentially equivalent to a fine, and a fine is a price Also, companies can just price the additional cost in, blame the government for the price increase, and mislead consumers about the tradeoff being made. A ban is harder to do that about

Yep and you can come in and make a fully open and compliant competitor product, because your closed and uncompliant incombent is forced to charge a price which should give you enough margin to succeed.

I am admitting that yes closed beats open at money extraction/harvesting from customers, which is why you only ever see closed hardware. The whole idea is to kneecap business models which depend on handcuffing owners with digital locks. This is economic lawfare, I am not hiding that. We The People are not animals on a farm to harvest dollars from occasionally, as if they were milk and methane.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privileged userspace layer BS. Either we're privileged and can copy their precious content, or they're privileged and we cannot. The current status quo is they sit above us in the truly privileged hardware modes while we are isolated, virtualized and sandboxed for their safety. It's not our computers anymore, they're just allowing us to use them.

Not what I meant. For example, on most mainstream linux distributions systemd fulfills the role of privileged userspace layer that I was referring to there. > truly privileged hardware modes The presence of a hypervisor doesn't imply paravirtualized hardware. Neither does the presence of an entire OS on modern GPUs imply a reduction in kernel responsibilities. Ring 0 is still ring 0. The OS is still managing and abst…

> The OS is still managing and abstracting hardware in the same way that it always was.

Not at all. The OS is not "managing" anything. It has no direct access to the real hardware. Only the firmware does. The OS is just talking to the API the firmware presents.

They're not our devices anymore. They're intel's, nvidia's. They dictate how we use them. The hardware's just sitting there, waiting for the right electrical signals to come in. But the OS is not the one sending those signals. Their firmware's in charge of that. It's the middle man between the OS and the device we paid money for. If the firmware doesn't like the tune we're singing, it shuts us down.

There are completely separate computers inside these things. They don't run our code, they only run signed code. Whoever has the keys to the machine's code owns the machine itself. And it sure as hell ain't us.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#443
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not concerned about DRM because it will (or won't) stop us from redistributing and playing content. The stated goal of DRM (blocking copyright infringement), and DRM's general failure to meet that goal, is the least interesting part of the story. We're concerned about DRM because what it does accomplish. DRM creates a vertically-integrated market wherein every layer of the stack is authoritatively controlled by…

> I can mix the audio so that dialogue is actually audible. How are you doing that?

Honestly, I don't usually, but turning up the center channel volume usually helps.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#444
post #436
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability for someone with a news article or a game to only have you experience it if you pay their fee or watch their ads, preventing you from copying the content off your device or modifying it in some way that is unauthorized (removing ads or otherwise modifying the behavior to circumvent protection mechanisms) is pretty obviously the exact same idea -- not some mere metaphor -- and is a protection of the exact…

You are still talking about DRM in the context of copyright. If someone has a news article or a game, they have copyright on that article or game and they use DRM to protect their copyright. All these are applications of DRM. Applications like Play Integrity could be quite different: say a bank can refuse to move money if your instructions to move money comes from a device deemed not trustworthy by Play Integrity. Th…

And this is the root cause you fail to understand - the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. You should be able to make a copy for you own purposes such that when you go back, the information is still the same and not manipulated and you should be able to actually share this information given it's important. For example a news story about corruption that has been taken down.

Also why the hell you believe that the same copyright rules that apply to a movie that can take millions to make and keeps relevance for years should apply to a news article for example? It's madness.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not GP, and don’t have their patience anyway. But while I see them as real computers, they aren’t any that I enjoy using, so I care relatively little for them.

> But while I see them as real computers, they aren’t any that I enjoy using, so I care relatively little for them. If you/people were brutally willing to crack them open, the "enjoyability" of using them for "hacker-minded people" could be improved insanely.

No, because they’d still lack a physical keyboard and a large screen ;)

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not what I meant. For example, on most mainstream linux distributions systemd fulfills the role of privileged userspace layer that I was referring to there. > truly privileged hardware modes The presence of a hypervisor doesn't imply paravirtualized hardware. Neither does the presence of an entire OS on modern GPUs imply a reduction in kernel responsibilities. Ring 0 is still ring 0. The OS is still managing and abst…

> The OS is still managing and abstracting hardware in the same way that it always was. Not at all. The OS is not "managing" anything. It has no direct access to the real hardware. Only the firmware does. The OS is just talking to the API the firmware presents. They're not our devices anymore. They're intel's, nvidia's. They dictate how we use them. The hardware's just sitting there, waiting for the right electrical…

"Managing" and "talking to an API" are not mutually exclusive though.

Yes, firmware has continuously become more complex. Yes, if you go back far enough (quite a long ways) there wasn't any.

Peripherals have always been a black box that increased in complexity over time. That increase in complexity does not imply a decrease in management complexity on the part of the kernel. Far from it! Modern device drivers are far from simple.

> They're not our devices anymore. They're intel's, nvidia's.

This is arguably true, but it is also a rather separate topic of discussion.

> They dictate how we use them.

That's largely only in theory. Now if you had said that Apple or Samsung were dictating how we use our phones I would have been inclined to agree. But I don't think gating certain features in the CPU or GPU for the purpose of market segmentation qualifies as dictating how I use my device. I don't like the practice, but I can't deny that I am able to use the APIs provided by the device in an arbitrary manner without it phoning home to the manufacturer or otherwise authorizing the specifics of their use.

> But the OS is not the one sending those signals.

Depending on how you define "sending those signals" and where you consider the boundary between sender and receiver to be you could reasonably argue that the OS never did that to begin with, or alternatively that it has always done so and still does. It's really quite arbitrary and depends entirely on where you consider the boundary of the device to lie.

I purchase a peripheral. It is a black box that implements some device or manufacturer specific API. The kernel has a device driver that abstracts over this and provides a generic userspace API that will (hopefully) remain relatively stable for multiple decades. That's the extent of the contract and that hasn't changed at all.

The device driver situation is already nearly unmanageable. Imagine how much worse it would be if the kernel needed to manage every last minute hardware detail down to the model and even sub-model variants. For example, for every USB mouse and keyboard, past and present. And that's before we even consider things like the firmware for the USB controller on the mouse, which in all likelihood is its own modularized unit from an entirely different manufacturer. But we're going to need to account for every last detail of that ourselves if we fully commit to the "all opaque firmware bad" route. After all, for the kernel to "truly" be in control of the hardware I suppose it will need to manually manage every last pin that falls under software control.

Technical accuracy and nuance is really quite important here. There are many different nefarious things happening at once. Conflating them only serves to confuse the discussion and leads people to (wrongly) believe that there's no need to worry about those weirdos ranting and raving in the corner.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#447
post #444
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are still talking about DRM in the context of copyright. If someone has a news article or a game, they have copyright on that article or game and they use DRM to protect their copyright. All these are applications of DRM. Applications like Play Integrity could be quite different: say a bank can refuse to move money if your instructions to move money comes from a device deemed not trustworthy by Play Integrity. Th…

And this is the root cause you fail to understand - the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. You should be able to make a copy for you own purposes such that when you go back, the information is still the same and not manipulated and you should be able to actually share this information given it's important. For example a news story about corruption that has been taken down. Also why the hel…

Information freedom is merely an ideal not a right. It is an ideal by techno-optimists. But there is no legal basis for information to be free. Indeed I agree with you that the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. And guess what, copyright is in our constitution, and information freedom is not.

Furthermore, there is also no legal basis in differentiating copyright by the budget involved to produce the work.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#448
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that same logic evil is not inherent to attested bootchains either. When used to verify that the computer loaded the OS that the end user expected it is a very powerful security tool. It is only bad when the keys aren't under the control of the device owner.

You're mixing up the authentication and attestation parts of secure boot here. You can absolutely install Linux, run secure boot (e.g. to protect you against "evil maid attack"), use your TPM to store your SSH keys, and live a happy and attestation-free life. You can also do other things, but if you don't want to, why would you?

* If permitted by the device manufacturer

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#449
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal amount of attestation on a general purpose computer which is owned by me is zero. Any nonzero amount implies that control of the device has not actually been turned over to me. It implies not only the slippery slope to which you refer but also things about back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes and much more. When it comes to financial or legal matters (and this includes online banking)…

You think there's no value in your laptop being able to attest its state to your phone in order to give you confidence it hasn't been tampered with? That's something that would be entirely under your control.

There's value in that, but it's a lesser value than the risk of normalizing manufacturer locking of computing devices.

Because the immediate next step after locking devices down is profit extraction from users.

Do you think Apple would have been able to maintain their App Store margins absent device control?

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#450
post #449
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think there's no value in your laptop being able to attest its state to your phone in order to give you confidence it hasn't been tampered with? That's something that would be entirely under your control.

There's value in that, but it's a lesser value than the risk of normalizing manufacturer locking of computing devices. Because the immediate next step after locking devices down is profit extraction from users. Do you think Apple would have been able to maintain their App Store margins absent device control?

So don't normalise manufacturer locking. We're not going to prevent the bad thing from happening by arguing against the hardware that enables the bad thing - we're going to need to argue against the bad thing.
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