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Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

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Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#441

Post by rapfaria »

register wrote: post #407

Worst WCC in the history of chess. I would have been able to draw the endgame in the final game myself ( 1800 FIDE ) just by shuffling the rook around. Apart from game one, Ding was a shade of his former self, and played most of the time to swap pieces even when he had the initiative.

Yes you would, after 2 weeks of playing 4+ hour matches, knowing Gukesh was playing not to draw all along since Liren is the better player on rapid/blitz (played in case of a draw), and having 10 minutes on the clock against your opponent's 1 hour.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#443

Post by endorphine »

kelipso wrote: post #329
endorphine wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the "fair" argument. Would it be unfair if Ding did not blunder the rook? How so?

Presumably the classical world championship should be determined by classical chess games, and this was the last one before the shorter tiebreak games. Ding looked like he would’ve started losing more if there were more classical games, who knows though.

So the argument is some of the rules are unfair?

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#444

Post by hilux »

ZiiS wrote: post #422
hilux wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, there are plenty of real jerks in chess as well - at the top as well as at your local chess club.

The biggest problem is, unlike most sports, there are lots of under 10s who can easily decimate you and haven't yet learned how difficult wining gracefully is.

In addition to playing chess, I go to the climbing gym – the 10-year-olds there destroy me as well! (But the culture of indoor climbing is vastly more positive than chess culture.)

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#445

Post by sevg »

sourcepluck wrote: post #374
NickC25 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magnus didn't show up because he more or less just doesn't give a shit anymore about classical chess. He got bored. Won the thing 10 years in a row and just didn't fancy it anymore. That's really it - he's so much better than, well, everyone that he just didn't want to go through the stress of prepping for such an event. I think he's not a huge fan of classical chess, prefers more dynamic, creative and faster games.…

> He's effectively mastered classical chess Have you heard of Stockfish? Makes Magnus look like a child. Stockfish and the other engines arguably keep getting better too, and in the engine tournaments like TCEC they continue to discover crazy new lines. E.g. https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=4HQZSMZz_MY That's Stockfish playing black in the Ruy Lopez, and the game is effectively over after 18 moves, against an engine ra…

What a strange reply. You're getting downvoted because winning the WCC 10 times in a row means by any reasonable definition that Magnus has indeed "effectively mastered classical chess".

If for argument's sake we entertain the point you were making, there'd still be no motivation for Magnus to continue in the WCC because it'd still be against humans and not engines.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#446

Post by paulddraper »

lxgr wrote: post #386
paulddraper wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can evaluate on lower depth/time. But even that isn't a good proxy. Humans cannot out-FLOP a computer, so they need to use patterns (like an LLM). To get the human perspective, the engine would need to something similar.

There are several neural network based engines these days, including one that does exclusively what you describe (i.e. "patterns only", no calculation at all), and one that's trained on human games. Even Stockfish uses a neural network these days by default for its positional evaluation, but it's relatively simple/lightweight in comparison to these, and it gains its strength from being used as part of deep search, ra…

Definitely. And Google's AlphaZero did it years ago.

I don't think the patterns are very human, but they are very cool.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#447

Post by glenstein »

hilux wrote: post #279
glenstein wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing the strawman. You did say: >In reality, chess is a fighting contest between two flesh-and-blood humans And they weren't suggesting that the match was boring so far as I can tell, but more generally, they were responding to your idea that high level play is intellectualized in a way that loses the human touch.

By "strawman" I'm referring to use of "relatively boring" in the NBA parallel, as if that's a generally accepted description of this match.

Again I don't see them saying that about this match.

They were using that as an example to illustrate that this distinction, between intellectualized high level play on the one hand, in a human touch on the other, is not something that shows up in the context of the NBA. They were not suggesting this was a description of the chess match between Gukesh and Liren.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#448

Post by sourcepluck »

sevg wrote: post #445
sourcepluck wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's effectively mastered classical chess Have you heard of Stockfish? Makes Magnus look like a child. Stockfish and the other engines arguably keep getting better too, and in the engine tournaments like TCEC they continue to discover crazy new lines. E.g. https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=4HQZSMZz_MY That's Stockfish playing black in the Ruy Lopez, and the game is effectively over after 18 moves, against an engine ra…

What a strange reply. You're getting downvoted because winning the WCC 10 times in a row means by any reasonable definition that Magnus has indeed "effectively mastered classical chess". If for argument's sake we entertain the point you were making, there'd still be no motivation for Magnus to continue in the WCC because it'd still be against humans and not engines.

Commenting about voting is considered poor form in the rules here, so if you could refrain from spouting your opinions as if they were verified facts, that'd be lovely, cheers.

Carlsen won the WCC 5 times. Where you get 10 from, I don't know. Perhaps your opinion on these matters is just another ill-informed hot take, but we'll never know for sure.

No, that is a totally nonsensical definition for anyone who's serious about games. I presume Carlsen would agree, to be honest, as someone who takes games seriously.

Dominating human chess =/= "mastering" chess. Mastering implies "completing", "finishing", "solving". Sure, he's arguably the greatest human chess "master" who ever lived, and I love his games (as I said), but the man isn't infallible, and in fact is roughly as far from Stockfish as I am from him.

Which is nuts, how good Stockfish is, when Carlsen is so good. But he's not undefeatable - the top players have beaten him (on occasion). Even the mighty Stockfish suffers the occasional defeat from lc0!

So this sort of youtube-chess-bro level of discussion is garbage, and I frankly couldn't care less what sorts of "votes" come in. The fact you bring that up says more about you than me, dear netizen.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#449

Post by glenstein »

justin66 wrote: post #266
benatkin wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. Nobody says "Hey, at least this has a human touch! I'm sick of basketball video games." if the NBA finals are relatively boring one year. I think maybe "that was a absolutely horrible finish" got interpreted as saying that the win wasn't well earned. That's not how I saw it…

> That isn't how most appreciate sports. People are hoping for the contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championships. I'm not sure how "hope" plays into it but few of the sports I follow allow for contenders to be at the top of their game towards the end of the championship. People are tired or playing injured, and it never occurred to me to believe that this made their performances less…

You must not follow the NBA or MLB then. One of the major narratives of the most recent NBA postseason was how unfortunate it was that the Eastern Conference was so plagued with injuries that it limited the quality of competition, and it frequently has been a major narrative.

Off the top of my head the recent Milwaukee Bucks championship was noted as happening in a context where their strongest competitor, the Brooklyn Nets, were catastrophically compromised by injuries. The Cleveland Cavaliers were almost laughably compromised by the loss of Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love against the Golden State Warriors in 2015 due to injuries. And then in 2019 it was the Golden State Warriors turn to suffer terrible injuries as they lost in the finals to an improbable underdog in the Toronto Raptors, which spilled over into a lost season for Golden State the following year which created an opening for the Lakers to win it all in the covid shortened 2020 season.

Meanwhile in baseball injuries are so pervasive it's almost a question of which team doesn't suffer injuries.

So I think it's a broadly accurate characterization of sports fandom at least in North America, and it's bizarre to venture into a conversation like this to talk broadly about sports fandom excluding such major examples that speak to this point.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#450

Post by sevg »

sourcepluck wrote: post #448
sevg wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange reply. You're getting downvoted because winning the WCC 10 times in a row means by any reasonable definition that Magnus has indeed "effectively mastered classical chess". If for argument's sake we entertain the point you were making, there'd still be no motivation for Magnus to continue in the WCC because it'd still be against humans and not engines.

Commenting about voting is considered poor form in the rules here, so if you could refrain from spouting your opinions as if they were verified facts, that'd be lovely, cheers. Carlsen won the WCC 5 times. Where you get 10 from, I don't know. Perhaps your opinion on these matters is just another ill-informed hot take, but we'll never know for sure. No, that is a totally nonsensical definition for anyone who's serious…

I think perhaps you need to take a break from your screen :)

You complained that I'm presenting my opinions as facts, and then you proceed to do exactly the same with your opinions ;) We're just having a discussion! Chill :)

OK, I meant 5 in a row, but I stand by my point. Your tone suggests I'm wasting my breath though, but that's fine.

"ill-informed hot take", "this sort of youtube-chess-bro level of discussion is garbage", questioning whether I'm "serious about games". Whatever your opinion is about "poor form", I imagine attacking someone's character or intelligence would also fit into that category :)

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