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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

latimes.com

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Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#441

Post by bobfromsf »

MarkMarine wrote: post #283
bobfromsf wrote: post #90

As a father with a son with IQ over 160, I can tell you unequivocally that California thinks gifted kids are the enemy. Gifted children, especially profoundly gifted kids like mine are special needs. He can’t function in a regular class because he would become bored and would act out and constantly get in trouble. Since my kid was a toddler we have had to completely rely on ourselves to figure everything out and we w…

As one of these kids, in Massachusetts, I had my math classes at a desk in the hallway by myself starting in 3rd grade, where I was just given an algebra textbook to read. I reviled the process of math lessons where the teachers just asked me to show the other 3 kids in my quad of desks how to do the lessons... I couldn't understand why they could not just grasp the concepts. It was frustrating for everyone involved,…

Thank you for your story. It’s something I’m hoping to avoid for my son and I’m glad you were able to find a path theiugh programming. Interestingly my son isn’t very interested in programming but he loves math.

He goes to a gifted school with many kids like him so it has been working out well, but the tuition is extremely expensive. We have been making sure he focuses on hard work as opposed to high marks so that he doesn’t learn bad habits.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#442

Post by zozbot234 »

mlyle wrote: post #435
zozbot234 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Structured recitation in a classroom is basically the opposite of [tutorial instruction plus mastery methods]. Reference for this statement? From a rather abstract POV, it seems to be the closest thing to "mastery methods and tutorial instruction" that can actually scale to a large class size and engage all students by default. Also, what method can be most effective in a "nationally recognized" engineering program…

> Also, what method can be most effective in a "nationally recognized" engineering program (most likely with highly recognized students to match) Part of what got my attention and asking you for citations: > > > As an important point, the merit of this kind of education is by no means exclusive to disadvantaged students! For more anecdata: I coach a MS competitive math team as an elective. Anyone can join. It's not s…

> In tutorial instruction, students study materials beforehand and come ready to debate, critique, and defend ideas in "class."

This seems to be what's often called the "flipped classroom" approach. You're right that this is not directly "teacher led" in a material sense, but only inasmuch as the equivalent effort happens outside the classroom. The "debate, critique, and defend" approach shares both the "immediately applicable practice" and the "quick feedback" features of DI - there's clearly "a ton of overlap" between studying a lesson on one's own and later debating, critiquing or practically applying the same content in class. Just because it might not be literal "blabbing back" doesn't mean that much of the same underlying dynamics is not involved.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#443

Post by bobfromsf »

liontwist wrote: post #286
bobfromsf wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study done in Australia that showed that radical acceleration for gifted kids resulted in the highest overall satisfaction in life. It sounds like you probably needed further acceleration.

Really? I often hear the opposite, kids I knew who got a bachelors degree at 17 say well now what? What is the rush!

This isn’t about it being a rush. For kids like mine, they NEED it. My son wanted to learn calculus when he was 9 but I refused and instead sent him to outdoor summer camps, sports camps etc. He still doesn’t know calculus because I told him not to rush it and he is resentful but instead he took geometry, number theory etc. He wants to learn at an accelerated pace, it’s not about anyone except for him pushing himself because he needs it.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#444

Post by TexanFeller »

zozbot234 wrote: post #361
mlyle wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please provide some evidence that this kind of scripted and recitation-heavy instruction is beneficial compared to other approaches? I've only seen pretty limited, pretty confounded evidence for it. A lot of studies I've seen are studies of students in charter programs, but these studies tend to ignore pretty big selection effects (e.g. comparing students to the general student population, when studies have f…

> deeper critical thinking or application of concepts. These things come after one has the basics down pat. Modern "Progressive" education rejects this point altogether. It's whole approach is entirely founded on putting the cart before the horse. > Further, blab schools were really pretty demanding of attention span Attention span is a function of engagement. As it turns out, hearing the lesson and blabbing it back…

> hearing the lesson and blabbing it back until one has memorized it fully is a pretty engaging and even "gamified" activity, especially wrt. the most marginalized and disadvantaged students

There are many kinds of marginalized and disadvantaged people and many require the opposite approach. I was very smart but had severe ADHD, was noticeably autistic, and my parents were poor at the time. Most of my normal public school classes were nothing more than repetition, rote memorization, and parroting back answers, no critical thought or deeper understanding of the concepts was expected. That was not engaging. That style of "education" had me failing classes and hating every waking moment of school. It was only the last year of HS that I started to shine after hitting AP classes with more interesting topics that required some deeper understanding and mastery. If I hadn't experienced non-rote classes my last year I might be a janitor now.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#445

Post by zdragnar »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #276
snerbles wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can also learn outside of school, too. As someone who spent time in all three, I felt that my academic time was utterly wasted in public school. Sure, "learning outside" is always available, but that doesn't regain the time served in government mandated kid-prison. > In my experience all that people talk about how private and homeschooling affects your ability to socialize with normal people is true. In my expe…

> I felt that my academic time was utterly wasted in public school No it wasn't! You learned how to interact with normal people. That's a lifelong skill. > "You're so well-adjusted", is a frequent refrain. Sure, some people make it work. I don't think this invalidates the broad observation that private and homeschooled people are frequently socially... off. I myself had a homeschooled kid in our town who transitioned…

> I don't think this invalidates the broad observation

The word you're looking for is stereotype. There's lots of harmful and inaccurate stereotypes about all groups of people out there, and polite society generally frowns on using them as a form of bigotry.

> Perhaps there's a critical time in development when socialization is necessary and there are other venues than public school to remediate this.

There are tons of opportunities for this sort of thing, in the form of non-school youth groups such as 4H, sports teams, scouts and so on.

In fact, actual in class socialization is frowned on or punished in most schools. It's the in-between time and extracurriculars when that happens most anyway.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#446

Post by farmeroy »

bobfromsf wrote: post #90

As a father with a son with IQ over 160, I can tell you unequivocally that California thinks gifted kids are the enemy. Gifted children, especially profoundly gifted kids like mine are special needs. He can’t function in a regular class because he would become bored and would act out and constantly get in trouble. Since my kid was a toddler we have had to completely rely on ourselves to figure everything out and we w…

I'm sorry, California does indeed allow children to skip grades. I also live in California and can think of 2 kids in my son's school who have skipped a grade. It is totally permitted - we've even discussed skipping our son one grade because he too is bored and capable of more, not only in maths but in every subject. We decided against it for social reasons.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#447

Post by anon84873628 »

Jensson wrote: post #48
soco wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was that simple I'm sure we would have seen it already. I imagine any gifted program, and you can imagine it in any way you like, will inevitably promote a majority from a certain group, thus by definition will be a target for every discrimination complaint - because basically it will be supporting and pumping more money to an already privileged group. So somebody has to decide: either targeted to constant fuss…

> Note: From the start we assume that the gifted deserve more from public school, thus we call them "neglected" when they seem to be simply treated the same. Do you think challenged kids deserve more from public school than anyone else? The point is that different kids has different needs, the general classroom is designed for the average student and doesn't fit those who are very different regardless in what way the…

>Do you think challenged kids deserve more from public school than anyone else?

Well, let's say we can only spend the money on one group or the other. One could argue that the disadvantaged kids should be prioritized because they need more help, and are less likely to succeed without it.

Whereas gifted kids might be bored in school and do worse than if they had dedicated programs, but they still have the chance to find enrichment outside of school or catch up later in life.

Of course, whether those statements are true would need to be an area of research. How would you calculate the overall ROI for society between the two options? Is it more import to "lift up the bottom" or "accelerate the top"?

And of course ideally we would do both.

I'm just saying it's not surprising that most (liberal / social democrat type) people will default to supporting the "more needy" first.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#448

Post by zozbot234 »

TexanFeller wrote: post #444
zozbot234 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deeper critical thinking or application of concepts. These things come after one has the basics down pat. Modern "Progressive" education rejects this point altogether. It's whole approach is entirely founded on putting the cart before the horse. > Further, blab schools were really pretty demanding of attention span Attention span is a function of engagement. As it turns out, hearing the lesson and blabbing it back…

> hearing the lesson and blabbing it back until one has memorized it fully is a pretty engaging and even "gamified" activity, especially wrt. the most marginalized and disadvantaged students There are many kinds of marginalized and disadvantaged people and many require the opposite approach. I was very smart but had severe ADHD, was noticeably autistic, and my parents were poor at the time. Most of my normal public s…

> Most of my normal public school classes were nothing more than repetition, rote memorization, and parroting back answers

Doesn't that directly support my point? The school system ends up relying on rote memorization even when it pretends to be all about having the students learn by themselves and exert critical thinking and open inquiry, as advocated for by the most "Progressive" educators! Isn't it then worth it to just get the rote learning part done with in the easiest, quickest and most effective way, by employing the structured approaches that are ignored by most teachers today?

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#449

Post by mlyle »

zozbot234 wrote: post #442
mlyle wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, what method can be most effective in a "nationally recognized" engineering program (most likely with highly recognized students to match) Part of what got my attention and asking you for citations: > > > As an important point, the merit of this kind of education is by no means exclusive to disadvantaged students! For more anecdata: I coach a MS competitive math team as an elective. Anyone can join. It's not s…

> In tutorial instruction, students study materials beforehand and come ready to debate, critique, and defend ideas in "class." This seems to be what's often called the "flipped classroom" approach. You're right that this is not directly "teacher led" in a material sense, but only inasmuch as the equivalent effort happens outside the classroom. The "debate, critique, and defend" approach shares both the "immediately…

> This seems to be what's often called the "flipped classroom" approach.

A flipped classroom falls short of tutorial instruction. Often, it's just recorded lessons presented outside school time to leave more time for using the classroom in other ways.

Homework in conventional primary classrooms is not helpful and may be harmful, and as best as I can tell, this includes flipped lessons and textbook readings. We've got a pretty big mountain of data accumulating on this topic.

I'm trying to flip some topics in AP Microeconomics and it's really hard to do in an effective way.

Actually: I find in AP Micro I am doing things much closer to how you describe, because I'm micro-optimizing for (students doing well on the AP Micro exam) instead of (producing students that I feel understand economics in a generally useful way).

> "quick feedback" features of DI

I think pretty much everyone agrees quick feedback and measurement is valuable. Having one clean expected answer that the class says together is one way to get this, and I guess it's perhaps the one that requires the lowest instructor skill and thus is most repeatable.

But I would say, for example, that Khan Academy does it much better-- pacing things to each student, providing individualized feedback, supporting spacing effects through mastery challenges, and allowing questions whose responses would not be said the same by all students. It's trickier, though: you need to stand in the back of class to tamp down on device misuse. And in the end students do work in exchange for recognition from their instructor in a well-functioning classroom, which is hard to get if they're spending most of their time trying to please a computer.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#450

Post by driverdan »

Animats wrote: post #191

> But others said the admissions exam and additional application requirements are inherently unfair to students of color who face socioeconomic disadvantages. Elaine Waldman, whose daughter is enrolled in Reed’s IHP, said the test is “elitist and exclusionary,” and hoped dropping it would improve the diversity of the program. Recognizing gifted students is inherently discriminatory. Because these are the numbers: Ave…

IQ isn't relevant as it's not used to qualify students for gifted programs.
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