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Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

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Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#441

Post by whythre »

jalla wrote: post #371
Hilift wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote was Russian observations on their securing valuable technical information, but lamenting on their inability to overcome their capability gap through spying due to changes in tactics of their "main adversary". In WW2, a major factor for the US Naval success in the Pacific was a change in attack doctrine. Aircraft would attack relentlessly from multiple directions, overwhelming the Japanese defenses. In the…

The major factor in winning the Pacific battles was code breaking the Japanese communications. Doctrine doesn't matter when you know what the enemy is doing or planning.

That is crazy reductive to the point of ignorance. Doctrine does matter. You might know what your enemy is doing but if you fight wrong, even with foreknowledge, you will not win.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#442

Post by ajuc »

bumby wrote: post #420
ajuc wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works the exact opposite way. People from totalitarian shitholes improvise a lot more than people from functioning democracies (because they have to improvise to survive daily life). And they trust their state and follow the rules a lot less (and for a good reason - their state exploits and lies to them to a degree you can't imagine living in a free country). USA wouldn't send its army to Mexico with 12 hours of f…

> And they trust their state and follow the rules a lot less It was my understanding that the opposite was true in Ukraine early in the conflict. Russia suffered high casualties because they still relied on a central command structure and field leaders were reluctant to make decisions without the express validation of their superiors. This led to them being sitting ducks as they waited for confirmation, and resulted…

The centralised structure, the lack of trust and selfishness, and the improvisation and ignoring the rules are all connected.

The less people care about rules - the harsher you have to be to enforce them.

The high level officers had to go to the front lines not because foot soldiers were helpless without them. They had to go there because without them the soldiers would ignore the orders to go forward, hide in relatively safer place, start looting and lie in the reports they executed the orders perfectly killing thousands of enemies :)

Remember when Ukraine invaded Kursk region this year? Kadyrov troops that defended the border there said they were "bypassed" by Ukrainians when they "were eating dinner" :)

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#443

Post by AlwaysRock »

acyou wrote: post #228

If you're familiar with USA military history, the Americans are (were) famous for not doing things by the book for the right reasons, and letting common sense prevail, as well as incentivizing good outcomes. “A serious problem in planning against American doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine.” “The reason that the American Navy does so well…

But the review found that the pilot did do the right thing and did follow the manual. The definition of, "out of control" seems to be to blame. He's even been cleared to fly again.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#444

Post by jtbayly »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #293
jtbayly wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn’t have that job until a year later.

Yes, but I guess command decided he wouldn't be a good fit to lead others because of his past experience which as not yet know when he was assigned to be the CO of VMX-1.

His past experience was known when he took that assignment. It was considered by all before he accepted it. That doesn’t mean his boss can’t fire him, but let’s not pretend that it wasn’t a complete reversal of what had previously been decided.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#445

Post by lupusreal »

m4rtink wrote: post #321
lupusreal wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a ship's captain is asleep, as he logically must be some of the time, and the officers on watch crash the ship into a reef, that captain's career is over even though by normal civilian standards it might be surmised that he did nothing wrong. Even if he's got the receipts to prove he trained his men properly according to the book and they passed all their tests. Civilian intuition about blame doesn't really apply.

Oh, so you need people who are lucky ? And no need to worry about loosing talented people due to circumstances outside of their control (and preventing other from even consideringto join) - they attract bad luck and that is more dangerous in the long term!

There are all kinds of subtle factors which may allude quantification, but which nonetheless matter because they contribute to outcomes which matter. When things really matter you can't afford to ignore these factors just because you can't pin them down. So yes, you favor those who are "lucky".

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#446

Post by vel0city »

whatshisface wrote: post #413
cafard wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but who acquired the land for them?

[flagged]

This isn't really clarifying the question of "who acquired the land for them", just acknowledging they (sometimes? often?) had to defend for themselves out there. In the end those settlers purchased deeds to those lands often for very cheap from the US federal government and expected for the federal government to support their Westward movement (which often did happen as well).

They acquired the land from the government and expected some amount of protection provided by the federal government as well.

And even then a ton of that settlement happened after many wars and what not with Native American tribes and groups in those territories.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#447

Post by s1artibartfast »

bawolff wrote: post #238
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its not like flying planes is a new phenomenom. Why were the procedures still bad after all this time? It’s a new plane! Also, a pilot blaming procedure for a bad call is ass covering. That’s not appropriate for a mission critical role.

> Also, a pilot blaming procedure for a bad call is ass covering Ultimately pilots are humans, being asked to make split second decisions. A certain percent of the time decisions are going to be bad. That is why we have procedures. In pretty much every other field we recognize that. Ignoring that fact is incompetence on the part of military command. There are of course situations that cannot be covered by procedures,…

Do you think there is no value in picking pilots that make the correct split second decisions or screening out pilots that don't?

The priority here is combat effectiveness, not job security for pilots.

On top of all this, they found that he didn't follow the correct procedures that did exist!

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#448

Post by whatshisface »

vel0city wrote: post #446
whatshisface wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This isn't really clarifying the question of "who acquired the land for them", just acknowledging they (sometimes? often?) had to defend for themselves out there. In the end those settlers purchased deeds to those lands often for very cheap from the US federal government and expected for the federal government to support their Westward movement (which often did happen as well). They acquired the land from the governm…

Without getting into the (worthwhile) details of US expansion, it's important to note that the security provided by the continental and federal governments did not stop raids, and on a scale of services provided relative to dysfunctional present day governments was truly hands-off. There is running water in Aleppo.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#449

Post by Tanoc »

kstrauser wrote: post #404
InDubioProRubio wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You’ve never been through boot camp, huh. Such a person would have an unbelievably unpleasant time until: - The military sent them home, - They cracked and sent themselves home, or - They got over themselves and learned how to be part of the larger whole. Making it through with those edge opinions intact is not an option.

That wasn't really true during World War II. Some of the most celebrated veterans of that war were anti-authority as hell, doing things like stealing parts of fellow aircrews' planes to rebuild their own, ignoring formation to get better torpedo angles, and running ahead of everyone else in a tank. In Korea that attitude still survived, but only in the air, and by the end of the Vietnam war it had basically been stamped out. The U.S. military since about 1972 is way less lenient than before then, especially as the equipment's gotten more expensive.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#450

Post by nkrisc »

rightbyte wrote: post #357
whizzter wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It fits perfectly if you look at it from a "balls" standpoint, this pilot ejected for whatever by-the-book reason when his electronics were bad and yet the airplane continued for 11 minutes just on autopilot. How would you expect a pilot that gives up so "easily" to lead other men into a high risk-high reward operation when he gives up himself so easily? Yes, maybe he was at low altitude during the descent and found…

It cuts both ways. Personally I wouldn't want to be led by someone that rather hit the ground in a ball of fire than risk the embarrassment of ejecting. A pilot that eject has at least shown that he has the balls to lose... Fighter jets fall out of the sky quite often. I don't get why it suddenly is such a big deal with F35. It seems like some hardware fanboyism.

Genuine question: have you served in any branch of any military?
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