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GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

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Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience. I've used AI to move multi thousand line codebases between languages. I've created new apps from scratch with it. My theory is the willingness to baby sit and the modality. I'm perfectly fine telling the tool I use its errors and working side by side with it like it was another person. At the end of the day it can belt out lines of code faster than I…

As a programmer of over 20 years - this is terrifying. I'm willing to accept that I just have "get off my lawn" syndrome or something. But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible. Whenever I sit down to write some code, be it a large implementation or a small function, I think about what other people (or future versions of myself) will struggle with when interactin…

> As a programmer of over 20 years - this is terrifying. > > I'm willing to accept that I just have "get off my lawn" syndrome or something. > > But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible.

My first thought was that I disagree (though I don't use or like this in-IDE AI stuff) because version control. But then the way people use (or can't use) SVC 'terrifies' me anyway, so maybe I agree? It would be fine correctly handled, but it won't be, sort of thing.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#442

Reviewing these conversations is like listening to horse and buggy manufacturers pooh-poohing automobiles: 1. they will scare the horses. a good team of horses is no match for funky 'automobile' 2. how will they be able to deal with our muddy, messy roads 3. their engines are unreliable and prone to breaking down stranding you in the middle and having to do it yourself.. 4. their drivers cant handle the speed, too ma…

A reminder that we basically built cities around the cars, cause they still need fuel, break and drown in the mud.

What is your similar plan for LLMs?

Analogies always end somewhere, I’m just curious where yours does.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#443
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to destroy open source completely The irony is of course that open source is what they used to train their models with.

That was the point. They are laundering IP. It's the long way around the GPL, allowing then to steal.

Maybe there will be legal precedent set at some point around derived work in terms of the set of data used to train the AI? I'm not hopeful though.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you can say they lack understanding of the world when in pretty much any standardised test designed to measure human intelligence they perform better than the average human. They only thing that don't understand is touch because they're not trained on that, but they can already understand audio and video.

You said it, those tests are designed to measure human intelligence, because we know that there is a correspondence between test results and other, more general tasks - in humans. We do not know that such a correspondence exists with language models. I would actually argue that they demonstrably do not, since even an LLM that passes every IQ test you put in front of it can still trip up on trivial exceptions that wou…

So they fail in their own way? They're not humans; that's to be expected.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience. I've used AI to move multi thousand line codebases between languages. I've created new apps from scratch with it. My theory is the willingness to baby sit and the modality. I'm perfectly fine telling the tool I use its errors and working side by side with it like it was another person. At the end of the day it can belt out lines of code faster than I…

As a programmer of over 20 years - this is terrifying. I'm willing to accept that I just have "get off my lawn" syndrome or something. But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible. Whenever I sit down to write some code, be it a large implementation or a small function, I think about what other people (or future versions of myself) will struggle with when interactin…

> But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible.

People felt the same about compilers for a long time. And justifiably so, the idea that compilers are reliable is quite a new one, finding compilers bugs used to be pretty common. (Those experimenting with newer languages still get to enjoy the fun of this!)

How about other code generation tools? Presumably you don't take much umbrage with schema generators? Or code generators that take a scheme and output library code (OpenAPI, Protocol buffers, or even COM)? Those can easily take a few dozen lines of input and output many thousands of LoC, and because they are part of an automated pipeline, even if you do want to fix the code up, any fixes you make will be destroyed on the next pipeline run!

But there is also a LOT of boring boilerplate code that can be automated.

For example, the necessary code to create a new server, attach a JSON schema to a POST endpoint, validate a bearer token, and enable a given CORS config is pretty cut and dry.

If I am ramping up on a new backend framework, I can either spend hours learning the above and then copy and paste it forever more into each new project I start up, or I can use an AI to crap the code out for me.

(Actually once I was setting up a new server and I decided to not just copy and paste and to do it myself, I flipped the order of two `use` directives and it cost me at least 4 hours to figure out WTF was wrong....)

> As a programmer of over 20 years

I'm almost up there, and my view is that I have two modes of working:

1. Super low level, where my intimate knowledge of algorithms, the language and framework I'm using, of CPU and memory constraints, all come together to let me write code that is damn near magical.

2. Super high level, where I am architecting a solution using design patterns and the individual pieces of code are functionally very simple, and it is how they are connected together that really matters.

For #1, eh, for some popular problems AI can help (popular optimizations on Stack Overflow).

For #2, AI is the most useful, because I have already broken the problem down into individual bite size testable nuggets. I can have the AI write a lot of the boilerplate, and then integrate the code within the larger, human architected, system.

> So the thought of opening up a codebase that was cobbled together by an AI is just scary to me.

The AI didn't cobble together the system. The AI did stuff like "go through this array and check the ID field of each object and if more than 3 of them are null log an error, increment the ExcessNullsEncountered metric counter, and return an HTTP 400 error to the caller"

Edit: This just happened

I am writing a small Canvas game renderer, and I am having an issue with text above a character's head renders off the canvas. So I had Cursor fix the function up to move text under a character if it would have been rendered above the canvas area.

I was able to write the instructions out to Cursor faster than I could have found a pencil and paper to sketch out what I needed to do.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#446
post #221

I use cursor and its tab completion; while what it can do is mind blowing, in practice I’m not noticing a productivity boost. I find that ai can help significantly with doing plumbing, but it has no problems with connecting the pipes wrong. I need to double and triple check the updated code - or fix the resulting errors when I don’t do that. So: boilerplate and outer app layers, yes; architecture and core libraries,…

AI will have the effect of shifting development effort from authorship to verification. As you note, we've come a long way towards making the writing of the code practically free, but we're going to need to beef up our tools for understanding code already written. I think we've only scratched the surface of AI-assisted program analysis.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#447
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience. My conspiracy theory is that the positive experiences are exaggerated and come from investors in the Nvidia stock.

That's a very important caveat. In our modern economy it's difficult to not be a shill in some way, shape, or form, even if you don't quite realize it consciously. It's honestly one of the most depressing things about the stock market.

Theres a big difference between being a happy customer and being a shill.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the subtle errors that are really difficult to navigate. I got burned for about 40 hours on a conditional being backward in the middle of an otherwise flawless method. The apparent speed up is mostly a deception. It definitely helps with rough outlines and approaches. But, the faster you go, the less you will notice the fine details, and the more assumptions you will accumulate before realizing the fundamental e…

I would love to find out where programmers are learning this idea: that writing code fast is ideal. If it takes 30 years to write one loc, it takes 30 years. Ideally, it takes 30 years to write zero lines of code.

The best programmers are no programmers!

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#449
post #221

I use cursor and its tab completion; while what it can do is mind blowing, in practice I’m not noticing a productivity boost. I find that ai can help significantly with doing plumbing, but it has no problems with connecting the pipes wrong. I need to double and triple check the updated code - or fix the resulting errors when I don’t do that. So: boilerplate and outer app layers, yes; architecture and core libraries,…

I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience. I've used AI to move multi thousand line codebases between languages. I've created new apps from scratch with it. My theory is the willingness to baby sit and the modality. I'm perfectly fine telling the tool I use its errors and working side by side with it like it was another person. At the end of the day it can belt out lines of code faster than I…

> I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience

I think it's just that it's better at some things than others. Lucky for people who happen to be working in python/node/php/bash/sql/java probably unlucky for people writing Go and Rust (I'm hypothesising because I don't know Go or Rust nor have I ever used them but when the AI doesn't know something it REALLY doesn't know it, like it goes from being insanely useful to utterly useless).

> I use AI autocomplete 0% of the time as I found that workflow was not as effective as me just writing code, but most of my most successful work using AI is a chat dialogue where I'm letting it build large swaths of the project a file or parts of a file at a time, with me reviewing and coaching.

Me too, the way I use it is more like pair programming.

Re: GitHub cuts AI deals with Google, Anthropic

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually very curious why AI use is such a bi-modal experience. I've used AI to move multi thousand line codebases between languages. I've created new apps from scratch with it. My theory is the willingness to baby sit and the modality. I'm perfectly fine telling the tool I use its errors and working side by side with it like it was another person. At the end of the day it can belt out lines of code faster than I…

As a programmer of over 20 years - this is terrifying. I'm willing to accept that I just have "get off my lawn" syndrome or something. But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible. Whenever I sit down to write some code, be it a large implementation or a small function, I think about what other people (or future versions of myself) will struggle with when interactin…

> But the idea of letting an LLM write/move large swaths of code seems so incredibly irresponsible.

Why? Presumably you let your coworkers move code around, too, and then you review it? (And vice versa.)

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