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We're forking Flutter

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Re: We're forking Flutter

#441
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you insist on pedantry, you should know Win32 isn't a GUI toolkit either, it's an anachronistic term for the Windows API. I don’t think it is “anachronistic” - as far as I am aware it is still the official name. And I don’t think calling it the “Windows API” is right, since Win32 is just one of the APIs that Windows offers. If I’m calling CreateFile, I’m using the Win32 API, but if I’m calling NtCreateFile, I’m…

The name itself is anachronistic, what does the 32 stand for? You call CreateFile with 64-bit pointers, it was still considered Win32 (until they officially changed it). But take it up with Microsoft: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/win... "Using the Windows API, you can develop applications that run successfully on all versions of Windows while taking advantage of the features and capabiliti…

Microsoft’s docs are a self-contradictory tangled incomplete and sometimes even downright erroneous mess, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what they say.

If I say “CreateFile is the Win32 API analog of NtCreateFile in the NT native API”, everyone experienced with low-level Windows development will know what I am talking about. If I started talking about “Native System Services”, I’m not sure as many would.

Similarly, the distinction between APIs which are easy to call from C code (and simpler FFI frameworks from scripting languages, e.g. libffi) and COM/Automation/.Net/WinRT APIs which are a lot more difficult to use from C (as opposed to C++), and which require more advanced FFI support, is still important in Windows development (or at least some parts of it.) And in practice the term “Win32 API” is often defined to exclude those higher-level harder-to-call-from-plain-old-C APIs.

It goes back to the original design of Windows NT, where you had a primary environment subsystem (Win32), secondary environment subsystems (OS/2 and POSIX), and integral subsystems (local security authority, session manager, etc). The primary environment subsystem is still called Win32, and the Win32 API is its public API. (It also has private APIs, most notably the CSRSS LPC interface, but that’s unstable from version to version.). As I said “Windows API” is insufficiently specific because (especially nowadays) Windows has lots of other APIs. WinRT and Win32 are both Windows APIs but very different. WinRT is largely built on top of Win32, but some documented WinRT APIs are built on undocumented Win32 APIs, leaving WinRT the only officially supported API to access certain functions.

Microsoft intentionally didn’t rename Win32 to Win64 when they added 64-bit support because it is 99% the same API just with some highly regular changes (mainly widening pointers). By contrast, Win32 was a much more radical change to Win16 - the Win16 API directly incorporates notions of segmented memory, which it uses to implement movable memory blocks (rather similar to Classic MacOS, albeit that did it in a 24/32-bit flat memory model rather than a 16-bit segmented one). Microsoft could have done a more straightforward port of Win16 to 32-bit x86, e.g. using a 32-bit segmented memory model instead of 32-bit flat memory, keeping movable memory; but (thankfully) they didn’t. It would have made it a lot harder to move to 64-bit or non-x86 platforms.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#442
post #120

> We describe Flock as "Flutter+". In other words, we do not want, or intend, to fork the Flutter community. Flock will remain constantly up to date with Flutter. That was the first fear when I saw the title - splitting community and having two incompatible versions. Good to see it addressed in the post. The second was just a fear of how it would complicate the development process, but it seems to be a drop-in replac…

Haha. Oh, most people know! They might not be knowing it’s Flutter to be specific but they sure know it’s some hybrid/non-native crap. I recently started using Ente migrating from Authy and goodness it feels and looks awful. I wish 2FAS had a desktop app. There was a native alternative that allows exporting codes. (This is not against Ente devs. I am sure they are a small team bringing out a FOSS product. This is jus…

the responsiveness and consistency is fine. ente just have weird design choices but that's a matter of taste

Re: We're forking Flutter

#443

While surfing around the various repos, I was reminded about the bad taste I got from the last time someone sung the praises of Flutter/Dart; this thing is firmly in the "Android SDK-ish" school of thought: download a shitload of prebuilt binaries from storage.googleapis.com, dontyouworryaboutit $ curl -I https://storage.googleapis.com/flutter_infra_release/releases/stable/macos/flutter_macos_3.24.4-stable.zip

Would you recommend a different distribution mechanism? The Apple binaries are all signed (in accordance with Apple policies), and the team has historically invested significantly in supply chain security. e.g. (a now 2 year old article) https://opensource.googleblog.com/2022/09/flutter-slsa-progr...

I'm in the camp of "if I can't build it, then it's not open source" so https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/d314f3ebba9e7... is a good start, but there is no .../f/flutter.rb although there is https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=flutt... but I haven't been soaking in the AUR ecosystem long enough to be able to port it to Homebrew

All those words to say that if there was a .github/workflow/release.yml showing the steps required to cook a release artifact that would be the best(?) documentation since it is kind of like a Dockerfile in that it's computer executable but mostly human readable

I don't mean to poo-poo all the "supply chain security" effort, but you have to recognize that right now it's "trust me, bro" since https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/blob/27c351ccb59fb... does check the sha256, and good for them, but gives me no way to trace back to any file in https://github.com/flutter/flutter/tree/3.24.4

Re: We're forking Flutter

#444
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people don't realize how many apps written in Flutter they use daily, simply because it's impossible to tell. Flutter implemented its "native" looking UI widgets by literally having teams of designers eyeball the native designs and reimplementing, starting from drawPixel. This can't be done on a volunteer basis alone. Many open source attempts have tried this route and failed because they don't have the sheer…

I’d much prefer they’ve gone with their own design system. People are already used to bespoke ones (web), badly done ones just remind me of scammy sites.

this so much.

but flutter was probably sold internally as a trojan into ios dev experience. the carrot was multiplatform... and to sell it they needed to at least market that it was "true multiplatform" with native look. which is ironic since they go out of their way to make it pain to build to both in the same app

Re: We're forking Flutter

#445

Back when I worked on GWT, we had trouble accepting outside contributions because the team had a mandate to support Googlers. That is, much like other libraries and tools at Google, changes could not break google3. This means testing patches against google3 and either changing the patch, or fixing whatever code used it, and these are tasks that no outsider can do. Shepherding these patches is no fun when you have you…

i avoid contributing to flutter because it feels like a google soon to be abandoned project.

hacks like not accepting tabs in any tools and using space indentation wrong on top of it. tools ignore parameters like port numbers just so it works better for Android studio very specific use case while bringing pain to any ci pipeline, etc.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#446
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to listen to the details, like "where is the back button", "Why does text work differently". There are some people that understand that it is different from the standard, but most just get annoyed. The discussion here is from a technical perspective why it is better, conformity of the app on different platforms vs standard behavior between different apps. There are very few people that care about the technic…

I'd also like to meet all these mythical users that have devices from every platform and want all their apps to look the same across all platforms. 99% of people I know IRL are in one ecosystem, with the exception of some that have an iPhone/iPad + Windows PC

Ever since the release of the M1, the number of Android users who now use Macbooks as their laptop has sharply increased. Even moreso for work purposes.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#447
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it. I've never worked at Google, but I was the engineer for SMS/Voice registration at WhatsApp, ocassionally with one other engineer (I believe the team was 3 when I left, not sure if it grew); I think there were two engineers doing my job for Facebook; although they had a little bit more scope, since there were more kinds of SMS they sent. That doesn't have a huge request rate, but it is super important. S…

Exactly, there’s really like three dozen or so people globally who really should never be in the same room at the same time as the risk is too great they get hit by the same asteroid. I’d put “person who makes sure WhatsApp verification codes work” on that list.

> I’d put “person who makes sure WhatsApp verification codes work” on that list.

Thanks! That part of my job really wasn't too hard though, once I got things in order; but it was the easiest part of my job to describe. Just a lot of debugging from sparse data, and trying to get things to work a smidge better, because smidges here and there add up. It really helped to have a great customer service team that bubbled up usable information from users.

Debugging things from sparse data gets you involved in a lot of different systems though... That and I told people I worked at an ISP in the before times, so guess who got to fight with sendmail, and guess who got to own our Domain accounts and DNS accounts and guess who got to get x.509 certificates, and who had to fight with Google Apps to make mandatory 2fa usable, etc. Basically everything without a person and server adjacent got me. :P

Anyway, I've moved on (replaced by a team of three on the SMS stuff amyway, much better bus factor) and am semi-retired and no longer in any critical path, which is a lot less stress.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree, trying to use Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed Flutter. I've been hearing about Kotlin multiplatform just as long as flutter, and writing Kotlin since 2019. Kotlin is a horrible daily driver. I worked on Android for Google at 7 years, and maybe it'd have a better chance if it didn't win internally. As it stands, there's too many organizational boundaries created, and each organization holds itse…

I'm going to be honest. C# , NodeJS, Python and rarely Java( had a rough year), pay my bills. Flutter/Dart doesn't. If you know someone hiring a Flutter developer I'm 100% down to interview. I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift( although Java was never as hard as Objective C). I even built a small project with it. Can we at least agree it's weird Google is trying to promote 2 different language…

> I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift

You have the wrong order: JetBrains created Kotlin[1], and anything Google had to do with it was just adopting their language. Same story for Gradle choosing it over Groovy

1: https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin

Re: We're forking Flutter

#449
post #348

> How large is the Flutter team, today? Google doesn't publish this information, but my guess is that the team is about 50 people strong. > That's 50 people serving the needs of 1,000,000. Doing a little bit of division, that means that every single member of the Flutter team is responsible for the needs of 20,000 Flutter developers! That ratio is clearly unworkable for any semblance of customer support. This is a we…

PHP Foundation has 10 developers and runs a substantial part of the web. 50 developers are definitely the wrong reason to fork flutter.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#450
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name itself is anachronistic, what does the 32 stand for? You call CreateFile with 64-bit pointers, it was still considered Win32 (until they officially changed it). But take it up with Microsoft: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/win... "Using the Windows API, you can develop applications that run successfully on all versions of Windows while taking advantage of the features and capabiliti…

Microsoft’s docs are a self-contradictory tangled incomplete and sometimes even downright erroneous mess, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what they say. If I say “CreateFile is the Win32 API analog of NtCreateFile in the NT native API”, everyone experienced with low-level Windows development will know what I am talking about. If I started talking about “Native System Services”, I’m not sure as many would. Similarly,…

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