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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#441

Post by sgu999 »

jajag wrote: post #383
s_dev wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries aren't getting it -- afaik that was a possibility regarding fall back mechanisms should their primary argument collapse before this ruling. The EU has won their primary case and thus Ireland must be forced to collect an spend it. This is will force a political crisis as the government is complaining it has no money to build houses. So all the those comments saying other EU countries just has to sue Ir…

> This is will force a political crisis no it won't > as the government is complaining it has no money to build houses no it isn't

I'm not Irish and I'm a lazy reader at this time so I won't search who's right, but the comment you are answering to was way more convincing than yours.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#442

Post by mvanbaak »

As a eu citizen, what is the impact of this to me? Will this money be used for us? Nope. Some club of politicians will have a nice bonus, FAANG will be more aggressive against the EU. Look, if rules are broken ppl will have to be held responsible. But thats not entirey clear in this case.

Thanks again EU

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#443

Post by realityking »

piltdownman wrote: post #120
quonn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements. Most are refreshed every 3-7 years based on OECD (or EU) recommended standards. Ireland's laws and treatment are 100% compliant. Rather than competing and reducing their tax rates countries like France prefer to moan, as politically they can’t be seen to favour big bad businesses. This of course was no…

> All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements.

That is completely wrong on multiple levels.

- You’re likely thinking of the double taxation treaties that follow the OECD model convention. These hardly get refreshed every 7 years. The German/Irish one is from 1962, the French/Irish one is from 1966, and the UK/Irish one from 1976. - The OECD’s BEPS multilateral tax treaty has now 85 state parties, including Ireland - There are other example of multilateral tax treaties, e.g. the Nordic countries have a multilateral double taxation treaty - There’s plenty of EU legislation around taxation covering predominantly VAT and excise duties bit also such details as the tax treatment of moving personal property between member countries or how royalty payments between associated companies are treated

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#444

Post by mvanbaak »

epolanski wrote: post #424
The_Colonel wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more difficult to determine where the value in software is being created. Still, big tech has a lot of R&D offices in Ireland.

That's not what really Apple did in Europe to pay little taxes. The scheme was essentially like this: - Apple Ireland bought iphones for 200$ or so (talking about pre X numbers, now they're likely slightly higher) - Apple Ireland sold iPhones to Apple Italy for 599€s - Apple Italy sold iPhones for 599€s + vat (thus avoiding to pay any corporate taxes in Italy while making billions) - Apple Ireland had a special agree…

And where was this against the law?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#445

Post by calmoo »

graemep wrote: post #71
Y_Y wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Eire" is a weird exonym. The country this happened in is called Ireland (officially and colloquially). It's a republic and shares the island (also called Ireland) with a non-sovereign country called Northern Ireland. It's often referred to as the Republic of Ireland, which is a fine description, but not the official name. In the Irish language, the name of the country is "Éire", but saying that in English is like sa…

Ireland can also refer to the whole island though, so it can be ambiguous. We have the same problem, even worse, with people calling the EU "Europe".

It's not really ambiguous. When talking about Ireland in an economic sense, we generally refer to the Republic of Ireland. Geographically you would say the island of Ireland if you were to include Northern Ireland.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#446

Post by systemtest »

actionfromafar wrote: post #434
systemtest wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dutch government is spending billions to keep ASML in The Netherlands. To circumvent these prohibitions, the money doesn't go directly to ASML but is invested in better infrastructure, housing and education in the local area. More trains and busses to bring people to the company, better energy grid to power all the ASML offices, more money towards STEM studies of the local universities so they are creating the ne…

It is kind of funny in way. :-) "Oh no, education and better infrastructure such as mass transit and a power grid, the horror!"

Not complaining! It's wonderful that we are finally getting investments in a better environment. And ASML provides a big boost to the economy as well.

But a bus line that goes from the train station directly to one company, together with housing that will be filled with the expats from ASML is obviously an (indirect) company subsidy.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#447

Post by sgu999 »

randmeerkat wrote: post #256
elAhmo wrote: post #251

Even if this sounds like a huge fine, this is effectively meaningless, even if they end up paying it. 13 billion, for a company with market cap of more than 3 trillion is around 0.4% of their cap. Until these fines become meaningful, companies will just continue breaking the law and asking for forgiveness later, as the changes to their market cap can offset this fine in hours.

> Until these fines become meaningful, companies will just continue breaking the law and asking for forgiveness later, as the changes to their market cap can offset this fine in hours. Up until recent years the EU didn’t even know if it could take action against U.S. based tech giants. Now that the EU has established wins in fines, usb-c, user replaceable batteries, and alternate app stores, I expect EU regulators to…

> Up until recent years the EU didn’t even know if it could take action against U.S. based tech giants.

What do you mean by that? Due to geopolitics? Or at a technical level of the current law?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#448

Post by randmeerkat »

sgu999 wrote: post #447
randmeerkat wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until these fines become meaningful, companies will just continue breaking the law and asking for forgiveness later, as the changes to their market cap can offset this fine in hours. Up until recent years the EU didn’t even know if it could take action against U.S. based tech giants. Now that the EU has established wins in fines, usb-c, user replaceable batteries, and alternate app stores, I expect EU regulators to…

> Up until recent years the EU didn’t even know if it could take action against U.S. based tech giants. What do you mean by that? Due to geopolitics? Or at a technical level of the current law?

> What do you mean by that? Due to geopolitics? Or at a technical level of the current law?

Geopolitics, but the technical level of law certainly plays a part. Europe had no idea what the effect of leveling lawsuits against a fortune one company would yield. However the EU has proven rather adept at identifying technological practices harming consumers and a strong capacity for rectifying them. Now that the EU is beginning to find its stride, I expect it to become more assertive in how international commerce is conducted.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#449

Post by jay_kyburz »

epolanski wrote: post #424
The_Colonel wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more difficult to determine where the value in software is being created. Still, big tech has a lot of R&D offices in Ireland.

That's not what really Apple did in Europe to pay little taxes. The scheme was essentially like this: - Apple Ireland bought iphones for 200$ or so (talking about pre X numbers, now they're likely slightly higher) - Apple Ireland sold iPhones to Apple Italy for 599€s - Apple Italy sold iPhones for 599€s + vat (thus avoiding to pay any corporate taxes in Italy while making billions) - Apple Ireland had a special agree…

A good argument for GST. With a 10% GST the Italians would have at least seen 10% of the 599.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#450

Post by orwin »

throw310822 wrote: post #396
hirako2000 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be unfair if the term was fair to begin with, but it wasn't, according to that court. What would be interesting is to see Apple revealing the cost of its lobbying, to claim a claw back. It won't. It turned out great for Ireland yes, it is odd the court didn't fine that country for offering illegal tax terms.

I think that the court ruled that it was unfair to other countries , not to Ireland. Ireland gained from the deal, didn't lose anything.

No, it's unfair to other _companies_. The issue like I said was that Apple was taxed ~1%, when others were taxed ~12%, which impact fair competition.
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