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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#441

Post by underlipton »

sgammon wrote: post #406
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never forget Kareem Serageldin - the one person who went to jail for the 2007 financial crisis. In fairness, he was an exec making $7M per year - so not a nobody, but he was only managing 70 people (Credit Suisse was a ~50k person company), and obviously not the only person who should've went to jail.

A systemic failure doesn't necessarily mean that people should go to jail; Kareem lied about the price of bonds and deserved jail time.

Everyone lied about the price of bonds, that's why our major investment banks still exist (though, I suppose CS doesn't at this point; that's another story).

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#443

Post by can16358p »

The criminal liability should be directly on the persons responsible who ignored safety warnings knowingly. If someone responsible for this doesn't go to jail, it's just a matter of time that a similar thing will happen again, given the company culture.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#444

Post by squigz »

ssklash wrote: post #433
mlekoszek wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... explain.

A recent Supreme Court ruling allows pretty much exactly this...

What ruling? What, more precisely than "pretty much this", does it allow?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#445

Post by ilyagr »

mlekoszek wrote: post #427
diob wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, it's now legal for the judge and everyone else involved to get a nice present from Boeing, as long as it happens afterwards! :(

Wait... explain.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-limits-scop...

Somewhat opinionated, but clearer explanation: https://jacobin.com/2024/06/supreme-court-corruption-thomas-...

Perhaps somebody finds a better overview.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#446

Post by tomp »

ilyagr wrote: post #445
mlekoszek wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... explain.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-limits-scop... Somewhat opinionated, but clearer explanation: https://jacobin.com/2024/06/supreme-court-corruption-thomas-... Perhaps somebody finds a better overview.

Supreme Court simply limited the (in their opinion overbroad) lower court's interpretation of the law.

Congress is free to fix the law.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#447

Post by abeppu »

sureIy wrote: post #432
abeppu wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the "corporations as people" x "criminal justice system" vein, I would be in favor of moving towards a standard where, if a person convicted of the same crime would receive a prison sentence, a company should be forced to cease operations for an equivalent period, and put all its assets into frozen fund which can only be used to pay out debts/obligations, and which earns no interest.

As bad as this is, nobody wants an Airbus monopoly, so let’s hope that individuals are arrested and Boeing continues to exists instead.

I think the DoD should make clear that the funds previously marked for Boeing would be open for new firms even if staffed by former Boeing employees -- provided diligence checks find no involvement by those parties in the current fraud case. Boeing, if it had no prospects of continued DoD contracts, would naturally want to offload teams and facilities dedicated to that work. If this situation was handled right, it could spark the creation of multiple new American firms with the means and know-how to deliver the various products and services that Boeing formerly provided, while simultaneously delivering a very clear message to shareholders and C-suite officers that this sort of conduct will not make them rich.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#448

Post by ilyagr »

tomp wrote: post #446
ilyagr wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-limits-scop... Somewhat opinionated, but clearer explanation: https://jacobin.com/2024/06/supreme-court-corruption-thomas-... Perhaps somebody finds a better overview.

Supreme Court simply limited the (in their opinion overbroad) lower court's interpretation of the law. Congress is free to fix the law.

How long do you think it will take for Congress to fix the law?

Until then, the ancestor poster's interpretation of "Don't worry, it's now legal for the judge and everyone else involved to get a nice present from Boeing, as long as it happens afterwards!" is more or less correct AFAICT (though I'd appreciate more educated opinions).

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#449

Post by sitkack »

underlipton wrote: post #430
philwelch wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest share of convicted inmates in the US were convicted of violent crimes such as murder, rape, robbery, or assault. Simple marijuana possession makes up a tiny share. And less than half of the violent crimes committed in the US lead to a conviction.

Couple of things: 1) Citation needed. Particularly if you're talking about federal inmates, state, or both. 2) It's disingenuous (re: primacy bias) to lead off with murder and rape, which account for a far smaller portion of "violent" crime than robbery (which I assume includes burglary, in which the victim and perpetrator don't make contact) and assault (which, again, does not require the victim and perpetrator to p…

Thank you for the call out.

I'd say the Sackler's committed premeditated violent crime, "at scale". One could even argue that they would be eligible for the death penalty and yet they keep half the winnings.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#450

Post by WalterBright »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #364
tsunamifury wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Yes! Even as an engineer. I've quit jobs over ethics / safety concerns and I want that pushback to be the norm. When I need to convince other engineers I want to be able to point to such consequences as to why we shouldn't be dangerously cutting corners. And even if you only punish engineers it will decrease the pool of talent / cost effectiveness of workers available to the unscrupulous managers such that cutting co…

When you start criminally charging people for mistakes in critical systems, what you're going to get is coverups.

With a no-fault system, mistakes are not covered up, but fixed.

With a fault system:

1. if a mistake is discovered, it will not be fixed because that would be an admission of criminal liability.

2. Quality will not be improved, because that is (again) an implicit admission that the previous design was faulty.

3. You won't get new airplane designs, because (again) any new design is an inherent risk.

I understand the desire for revenge, but there are heavy negative consequences for a revenge/punishment/fear based system.

P.S. I worked at Boeing on the 757 stabilizer trim system. At one point, I knew everything there was to know about it. It was a safety critical system. I did a lot of the double checking of other peoples' work on it.

I did not work in an atmosphere of fear.

The 757 in service proved an extremely reliable airplane. I've flown commercial on many 757s, and often would chat a bit with the flight crew. They were unanimous in their admiration for the airplane. Made me feel pretty good.

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