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Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

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Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#441

Post by Dalewyn »

overgard wrote: post #437
Dalewyn wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What then would be sufficient? Or are you saying it's simply OK for Apple to ban a major company from their app store? Before you say that, keep in mind that Apple has over 50% of smartphone market share -- they aren't "just another company", should they really be able to decide for that many people that they're not allowed to use Epic's product? Also I should point out that there's a significant difference between b…

Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world. If Apple straight up doesn't want to do business with Epic and can even point to prior breaches and violations of terms as justification, more power to them.

Remember the classic and often seen disclaimer: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

>versus breaking a ToS that's forced upon you.

Epic wasn't forced to sign anything.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#442

Post by r00fus »

gmiller123456 wrote: post #369
paxys wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture is a very hard thing to change at any company, including in the face of existential threats. Look at what's happening at Google with AI. "We are a walled garden and will not interoperate or tolerate alternatives" is in Apple's DNA, and no decision maker at any level at the company will risk suggesting otherwise for fear of being branded a traitor, even if it is a very good idea.

We are a walled garden and will not interoperate or tolerate alternatives" No. Before Apple got their monopoly they absolutely begged developers, even tried to shame them, for not developing for MacOS. They evened threatened lawsuits against Microsoft.

> They evened threatened lawsuits against Microsoft.

Because Microsoft reneged on a deal. You make Apple sound petulant when they were standing up to a 800lb coercive monopoly.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#443

Post by overgard »

Dalewyn wrote: post #441
overgard wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What then would be sufficient? Or are you saying it's simply OK for Apple to ban a major company from their app store? Before you say that, keep in mind that Apple has over 50% of smartphone market share -- they aren't "just another company", should they really be able to decide for that many people that they're not allowed to use Epic's product? Also I should point out that there's a significant difference between b…

Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world. If Apple straight up doesn't want to do business with Epic and can even point to prior breaches and violations of terms as justification, more power to them. Remember the classic and often seen disclaimer: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." >versus breaking a ToS that's forced upon you. Epic wasn't forced to sign anything.

> Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world

Funny, because part of what makes the free parts of the world "free" is competition, which is exactly what Apple is trying to stifle.

Also it's funny you cite that disclaimer about right of refusal, because in fact, there are plenty of discrimination laws that address just that and in general there are reasons you can and can't refuse service, legally speaking.

> Epic wasn't forced to sign anything.

Sure, plenty of businesses just love to ignore >50% of the market. I'm sure their investors would completely understand.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#444

Post by freedomben »

TillE wrote: post #254
xw390111 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will all blow over in a week. But once the control is lost, it’s gone forever.

Developer grievances about Apple have been simmering for years, and even longtime Apple fans aren't happy about what's been going on lately. This is not a smart path to follow. They need enthusiastic small developers to help build the Vision Pro ecosystem, and so far it doesn't seem to be going that well.

The grievances have been simmering, but anecdotally at least I haven't known a single developer who is unhappy about it enough to actually switch. Also programming languages/frameworks/platforms are highly sticky. Apple was very smart to make their language/framework non-cross platform (generally speaking. By that I mean, try finding jobs doing Android or even web development in Objective C or Swift. I know it's possible but it's not very practical) and unique to their system.

At the end of the day, developers are users first and foremost, and as users they are thrilled with Apple. Things would have to get pretty damn bad before Apple would need to worry about losing developers.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#445

Post by anon373839 »

overgard wrote: post #376
iamthirsty wrote: post #4

From DF a few days ago[0] : > The termination of Epic Games Sweden AB’s Apple developer account was communicated in a letter from Mark Perry, a lawyer representing Apple, to Epic’s lawyers: > Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible. It boiled down to an unsupported “trust us.” History shows, however, that Epic is verifiably untrustworthy, hence the request for meaningful commit…

I don't really understand the notion that Sweeney's original response was terse or insufficient. He said exactly what needed to be said (good faith effort to follow the rules) succinctly and professionally. Should he have offered a pinky swear or a blood oath? Or an essay pledging his allegiance? I generally like Apple and their products but in this instance they came across as bitter and petty.

I agree, but this is missing the point. It was never about Sweeney’s response. Apple was never going to accept any response given, in the same way that an Alabama cop who pulls over a driver for being black is not going to leave without finding some “reason” for an arrest.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#446

Post by zmmmmm »

jfoster wrote: post #429
overgard wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely just Apple trying to save face. Without the threat of fines and lengthy legal proceedings Apple would not have cared about "epic's commitment to follow the rules"

Difficult to imagine what Apple were thinking in the first place. Did they actually think there was a chance the EU would let this slide? Best I can tell, all they've achieved is bringing even greater scrutiny on themselves.

When reason fails to explain people's actions, it gives you a measure of the strength of their ideology on something. In this case, you can see how deeply they believe in the concept of complete authoritarian control of their ecosystem. Enough that logic and practical outcomes barely matter in comparison.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#447

Post by Dalewyn »

overgard wrote: post #443
Dalewyn wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world. If Apple straight up doesn't want to do business with Epic and can even point to prior breaches and violations of terms as justification, more power to them. Remember the classic and often seen disclaimer: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." >versus breaking a ToS that's forced upon you. Epic wasn't forced to sign anything.

> Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world Funny, because part of what makes the free parts of the world "free" is competition, which is exactly what Apple is trying to stifle. Also it's funny you cite that disclaimer about right of refusal, because in fact, there are plenty of discrimination laws that address just that and in general there are reasons you can and can't refuse servi…

[flagged]

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#448

Post by mulmen »

freedomben wrote: post #438
mulmen wrote: post #372

Apple believes this is an existential threat and they are fighting against it as hard as they can. But is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? These actions come with a cost. This gives Epic visibility and it harms trust in Apple’s brand. How do they balance these costs against the perceived threat?

Does it harm trust in Apple's brand? From what I can gather, people who already love and trust Apple want them to do this. They view the status quo as better, and would likely lose trust if Apple didn't fight this as much as possible.

I love my Apple products. I think the walled garden improves my experience on the device. I do want Apple to exert control over the platform. But I also believe they are fallible and the app store is anti-competitive. I think some competition in the browser and app store space on iOS would be good for everyone, including Apple. They need to be humbled occasionally. I definitely think less of Apple based on their actions here. It shows they care more about exerting control than their users, regardless of how they have justified their actions to themselves.
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