One of the frustrating things about modernity as a westerner is that I don't feel the need for the standard of living that all of these incredible-but-dangerous advances in modern science and technology have granted us. I don't need faux-stone counters cut by Central Americans, I don't to eat as varied a diet as is available, I don't need to travel anywhere over 45 mph or internationally, I don't need A/C on 95% of s…
Degrowthers are poison, and a big reason why Germany's economy is contracting this year while the rest of the EU and the USA are growing.
Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
441–450 of 469 posts
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#442Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I do sand blasting a have a little box I do it in. With windows. I wonder why they don't have such an arrangement for the bench cutting. No matter the health hazard, it doesn't sound economical to cover a whole kitchen in dust for a two feet cut.
I bet there is a product that could be used, however I'm sure the installers think it's "just one more thing to carry around" when the faucet hole cut only takes a few minutes.
I quick search on Amazon for "Stone Cutting Dust Cover" gave plenty of cheap looking clear plastics covers with a hole for a vacuum cleaner. I bet there are pro variants available of those.
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#443Earlier quoted context omitted.
They were enforcing some laws and doing so selectively. Striking workers were usually on the wrong side of the law though because they were using coercion and force to make every worker to participate in strikes (they could hardly work any other way without laws restricting “right to work”)
> they could hardly work any other way without laws restricting “right to work” Well sure they could. The workers who agree with the strike go on strike and if that's enough of them to put pressure on the employers to meet their demands, their demands get met. If it isn't, you've failed to convince your fellow workers that the light is worth the candle and if you don't want to work under the terms that they do, you c…
Or your employers can hire some thugs to disperse you and the other strikers. When you resist the governor will just use that as a justification to send in the national guard to “maintain law and order”. At least that’s how it often worked in the good old days..
> Well sure they could.
In an imaginary world maybe. In a society with no safety nets and and where any meaningful accumulation of savings is infeasible? Not so much.
> you can go work for someone else.
Under the same conditions. Labor has an inherently weaker bargaining position (due to certain pretty obvious factors) compared to business owners. Unless you have some external regulation or societal pressure and employers are behaving fully rationally (i.e. maximizing profits) that will always be the case for the majority of the workforce.
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#444Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a wood shop, I wear a respirator constantly unless I've got the doors open and the fans on and I'm not going to be doing more than a one-off cut that afternoon. A properly fitted 3M 6800-series full-face respirator is pretty comfortable even for long periods and while wearing glasses. A 6200-series half-mask is even more comfortable, though a little awkward with glasses. The only problem is that a 6800-series…
I too am a proponent of proper half face respirators (7500 here), and they are quite comfortable compared to the various disposable solutions, but I'd still acknowledge that wearing one does carry some discomfort. Not enough to make me want to get silicosis instead, but also not so little that I can confidently say I'm happy wearing it for 8 hours. What's your solution for the full face with glasses? The spectacle ki…
And I'm assuming that a lot of silica particles will go through a P100 a lot faster than the stuff I do. ;)
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#445Earlier quoted context omitted.
Free market competition rarely develops without regulation and/or government/public oversight. With no external control businesses tend to form cartels and/or adopt practices and regulations that are more hostile towards both consumers and workers than what governments can come up to. On average anyway. Of course there markets and goods which are somewhat immune to this and exceptionally incompetent governments which…
> With no external control businesses tend to form cartels and/or adopt practices and regulations that are more hostile towards both consumers and workers than what governments can come up to. Cartels are generally a result of government regulation, because they require something to be creating a barrier to entry that prevents new entrants from breaking the cartel. You can also have cartels enforced by e.g. acts of v…
They are often the result of companies bribing or otherwise coopting the government to enact those regulations.
> You can also have cartels enforced by e.g. acts of violence or vandalizing competitors
Or you could just abuse your dominant position by preventing your suppliers or retailers from doing business with your competitors, outright buying them, running them out of business by temporarily dumping your prices etc. these are all both more effective and more realistic options than outright violence.
> but the answer in these cases is not to pass more laws to mitigate the consequences of insufficient competition,
Having corrupt and incompetent governments leads to bad outcomes. That’s not particularly insightful nor does it automatically discredit any form of regulation.
> it's to address whatever is causing the market to be uncompetitive.
You’re certainly right. Sometimes this can be accomplished by reducing restrictions and sometimes by introducing additional laws. We should also take into account that unregulated markets are hardly ever competitive.
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#446Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Then governments passed laws requiring it because politicians are adept at taking credit for good things that were about to happen regardless With this attitude we’d still be driving with leaded gas, living in lead painting rooms with asbestos roofs and spraying ozone layer destroying aerosols amongst a bunch of other things. The mechanism you described only really works with short term safety issues. If it takes y…
> The mechanism you described only really works with short term safety issues. The mechanism I described works for employment issues, because employees can choose not to take a job and more dangerous jobs carry a risk premium that both employers and employees have the incentive to reduce when reasonable safety measures are available. With leaded gasoline and CFCs the victims have no option to refuse, and it's complet…
For some reason you’re making the assumption that most employees are as capable of estimating this premium as well as their employers and/or that it’s even possible to estimate this risk in advance?
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#447Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#448They just made the wrong choice in architecting their process'. They had different priorities then. Engineered stone is created, it's not like natural stone, we don't have to cut it. They also have the choice to cast it, net shape. They just need to redo their whole schema, they need to reconfigure their process to customize the engineered stone before its solidified, not after.
> They just need to redo their whole schema, they need to reconfigure their process to customize the engineered stone before its solidified, not after. That's not viable. They are cut only after the actual physical space has been built (carpentry mainly) because measurements have to be taken then since nothing is perfectly true/plumb/square. Today the turnaround is about a week for the material to be cut and then ins…
I think that's the problem, we're unwilling collectively as a society to pay the cost.
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my experience, most of what happens is that workers don't want to wear the gear because it's hot/uncomfortable and they're working really long hours and get tired and sloppy by the end of it. I actually worked in such a factory, so this is based on direct experience, and what I saw was people cut corners mostly because they were tired after long shifts, though lack of comfort was also a factor due to the heat. The…
> OSHA-recordable Go on…
If anything I'd worry more about the temperature of the floor or the number of hours worked, but it's hard when some people had second jobs or what have you.
Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis
#450Earlier quoted context omitted.
> With no external control businesses tend to form cartels and/or adopt practices and regulations that are more hostile towards both consumers and workers than what governments can come up to. Cartels are generally a result of government regulation, because they require something to be creating a barrier to entry that prevents new entrants from breaking the cartel. You can also have cartels enforced by e.g. acts of v…
> Cartels are generally a result of government regulation, They are often the result of companies bribing or otherwise coopting the government to enact those regulations. > You can also have cartels enforced by e.g. acts of violence or vandalizing competitors Or you could just abuse your dominant position by preventing your suppliers or retailers from doing business with your competitors, outright buying them, runnin…
Which is the thing that does this:
> automatically discredit any form of regulation.
The default assumption is that a proposed regulation benefits powerful interests, because powerful interests are the ones who can have regulations enacted.
That doesn't mean it's a violation of the laws of physics for a regulation to do something good, but if you open the US Code to a random page it's not what you'd expect to find, and if someone proposes a new rule they should be viewed with skepticism.
> Or you could just abuse your dominant position by preventing your suppliers or retailers from doing business with your competitors, outright buying them, running them out of business by temporarily dumping your prices etc. these are all both more effective and more realistic options than outright violence.
These also require the market to already be uncompetitive. If there are a thousand suppliers and retailers, you have to be able to strongarm them all or your competitor can just use any that you can't. If there aren't regulations creating a market barrier to entry then new competitors can form and you have to buy them out for more than they make in the market which in turn is more than their entry cost, but if you do this then it's profitable to keep creating new competitors to make you buy until you run out of money. You can sell at a loss but with low barriers to entry now customers or retailers can go into competition with you just to force you to keep doing that forever and lower their own costs.
Also notably such things have been anti-trust violations for a hundred years or so without requiring any new legislation (and this is still a useful check when some other regulations have caused a market to already be uncompetitive or have high barriers to entry).
> Sometimes this can be accomplished by reducing restrictions and sometimes by introducing additional laws.
But many of the laws proposed to address problems caused by a lack of competition are not even attempts to restore competition. They're commonly attempts to mitigate the damage caused by the lack of it. And these laws typically make it harder rather than easier to actually restore competition, because regulatory overhead favors large conglomerates with legal departments, reduces the flexibility that could allow new challengers to find a niche or is just literally drafted by the incumbents to create a regulatory moat.
> We should also take into account that unregulated markets are hardly ever competitive.
There is no such thing as unregulated markets. Governments at a minimum enforce contracts and property rights, and then must do so in a way that doesn't enable market consolidation, e.g. by not enforcing contracts for the formation of a cartel or allowing one entity to buy all of the land in a city.
But regulations should be directed to pricing major externalities and promoting competition rather than trying to micromanage a society made rotten by other rules that make markets uncompetitive.