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The Never Married, a New Normal

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Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#441

Post by alpineidyll3 »

The meaning of the word "marriage" has changed significantly even over the last 50 years in the west, and bears no resemblance to the the institution with the same name that existed before that. The idea that marriage would be chosen by the individual for romantic reasons, secular marriage, etc. etc. are new. Assumptions of fidelity have even changed and changed again several times since year 0.

If anyone is thinking about marriage, or troubled by this article, I strongly encourage he/she to really study what marriage meant for prior civilizations. Our society encourages people to accept modern marriage as an eternal, teleological, essential and inviolable constant of society. Imo today's US marriage is a poorly developed, haphazard, and soon-to-be obsolete layer cake of ideas which does a lot of harm.

Anything which isn't working for 50% of people, and which decimates family wealth when it fails, probably deserves critical thought.

The promised miracle spouse of modern marriage, who is your business partner, sexual fulfillment, therapist, childcare specialist, etc. etc. DOESN'T EXIST.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#442

Post by deprecative »

salawat wrote: post #439
deprecative wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ignorant as all hell take is that this is tied to the collapse of the enforced nuclear family social construct. Women grew their careers and were able to have financial independence. As women began to have the option to choose not to have children many decided to take that approach. Once the decline really sets in it's during the wealth extraction of the middle and lower classes by Reagan and the destruction of le…

To hell with the nuclear family; all that was was a barely veiled attempt to maximize the consumption factor of the economic equation by seperating disparate generations in seperate homes.

It's an interesting issue as folks who want to get married, start a family, and develop that nuclear style household are presently the same folks who are not able to buy a house, afford medical bills, hell even most cannot afford a $500 emergency. Even without everyone having their own home and driving consumption, it's not likely that the situation would be all that much different.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#443

Post by sangnoir »

anon291 wrote: post #440
sangnoir wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many families the father's are totally normal incomes and we have a fair share of people making below average. I'm guessing those families are not living the conspicuous-consumption that has been the "new-normal" for decades now. I'll note that it's easier to have a single-income household when you're inheriting a house from grandma, or if dad will help with the deposit for buying a property. However, if both pa…

Well yes.. we live an alternative lifestyle I suppose. As for wealth.. I can't speak to that but we look out for each other and there are several families I know who do not have that kind of support. > live a more modest lifestyle than their peers. you mean are less greedy than peers.

> you mean are less greedy than peers.

I was avoiding speculating on motivations and was aiming for objectivity.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#444

Post by Llamamoe »

inkcapmushroom wrote: post #369
Llamamoe wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still a healthier alternative to broken relationships continuing for years because of the high bar to leaving it that are the de facto norm for our civilization. Commitment encourages treating the relationship as a sealed deal and not putting effort into its maintenance.

Commitment just as often encourages treating the relationship as a sealed deal and thus putting much more effort into its maintenance. If you're being rational about it being in a failed marriage is a miserable experience that nobody enjoys living, so it makes more sense to put in effort to avoid that situation. If you're in a failed long-term relationship with an easy escape hatch you might not put in effort to fix…

This is not what I've seen. Almost everyone sticks with failing, unfixable relationships way too long, and the initial high effort phases always turn into complacency as the barrier to breakup goes up and it's easier to just coast along than keep treating the relationship as something that needs continuous maintenance.

Preventing a bad long-term outcome is rational, but humans don't act rationally. Immediate pressures or lack thereof act upon our minds vastly stronger.

People defend the standard monogamy model to the death when vast majority of relationships blow up spectacularly in the long run and half the people out there have horror stories about it.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#445

Post by RMPR »

fuzzfactor wrote: post #374
PretzelPirate wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can speak to this in some degree As you suggest at the end, this is very much your personal view. My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. Our commitment didn't change due to marriage. The only thing that changed was that things got easier from a legal perspective. We no longer need to worry about wills in the case that one of us dies, and we can make medical decisi…

>together for almost 20 years, but we've only been married for 2. This is the way. When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically.

> When a relationship has been proven for a decade or more, then marriage can be contemplated more realistically.

This sounds good but the data seem to contradict you[0]. It's been known for a long time that people living together are more likely to get a divorce. This study is about re-evaluating if it's still true. All in all, the person you are responding to (and maybe you?) are more likely the exception rather than the norm. But to what extent the exception? 2 years is a pretty short time frame, only time will tell.

0: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12530?a...

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#446

Post by nunobrito »

anon291 wrote: post #386
sangnoir wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd It's not this crowd you should be defending against - it's the profiteers. Extraction of profits has been elevated above everything else and I feel the social contract between industry and individuals has been violated. Salaries are depressed and everything is so expensive, people need to have worked-out a decent-paying career before they consider getting married and/o…

Marriage and family and community are historically preventative of the types of exploitative individuals and groups you talk about. In your model the causation is that profiteers caused the breakdown of marriage but we shouldn't confuse correlation with causation. It's also plausible that the decline of marriage caused the preponderance of profiteers. Indeed given the modern day 'profit above all else mentality' that…

That goes against what most people advocate as reason for women to work.

I live between Germany and Portugal, where in both countries is similar to what you describe. It is perfectly possible to raise a large family with only the father having a salary.

Today most couples have the mindset of buying a house for hundreds of thousand euros, pay tens of thousands for a car and also afford vacation to Thailand or whatever frivolous location.

Choosing a more modest location to live, buying second-hand cars without debt, having the wife cooking and taking care of the children is already a huge difference. What is not measured if the happiness of the woman in watching her children grow, that is truly fantastic. Most media favor an "empowerment" rather than presenting as option a traditional lifestyle.

Took me decades to understand this and guide my own family towards a saner lifestyle away from frivolous consuming habits.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#447

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #249
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Responsibilities as a wife”—sorry, what are these supposed to be? Pretty sure there’s such a thing as “responsibilities as parents” and that one is ungendered and that’s why they are enshrined in laws, but what are “responsibilities as a wife”? Though, of course, if you’re still thinking about gender norms, then either find someone who agrees with your expectations, or don’t be in a relationship at all because gende…

>“Responsibilities as a wife”—sorry, what are these supposed to be? Figure that out and you'll get a committed partner for life. ;) But to start, a wife is often the sole emotional support network that a man has, and in a healthy relationship his sole source of sex.

I know what it’s like to be in a long-term relationship that is effectively a marriage already, and while a good partner (looking past the gender issue with the language now) does take the effort to provide emotional support and even sex, I don’t think that it’s mature nor healthy to call such choices “responsibilities”, because responsibilities are things that people have the obligation to do regardless of their emotional and mental well-being.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#448

Post by sizzle »

ozfive wrote: post #417
sizzle wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sign a pre-nup

This is the best advice now considering how brutal divorce can be. If someone says they aren't about money then you can find the truth out very quickly by making that expectation clear.

absolutely, if you trust and love each other then this is just a formality for the reasons you stated, generally speaking. If not, it's an escape hatch from financial ruin.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#449

Post by deterministic »

I was married 20+ years. Don’t recommend it. Instead find a partner who has his/her own life and share the good times between you. Adjust time spent together up/down as needed to not get bored/complacent. Do not get involved with a person who aren’t mature enough to have their own life without you.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#450

Post by mlindner »

rrgok wrote: post #316
mlindner wrote: post #224

The new normal on how civilization gradually ends. People need to stop not having kids. You’re destroying civilization in the long term.

At the risk of being downvoted to hell. I'm genuinely trying to understand: what would the issue if civilization collapse and, in the extreme case, human species goes extinct? If you are not alive by then (which is probably the case), would you feel something?

Yes of course I would feel bad. I care about the future of humanity. If we're going to cease to exist then what's the point of trying to achieve anything with your life?
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