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TikTok is now banned in Montana

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Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#441

Post by onionisafruit »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #411
setgree wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is downstream of culture. if we wanted to reduce social media use, we could try to change internet habits and attitudes writ large. Something like a “put down the phone and talk to people” campaign, a la anti-smoking/drinking/drunk driving efforts of yore. That way it doesn’t feel like teens in particular are being targeted by out of touch adults. At least, not as much.

Unfortunately, culture is downstream of economics and technology, so starting from the political end is going to be... an uphill battle.

It’s all a lazy river flowing in a circle. Everything is downstream of everything else.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#442

Post by TeMPOraL »

Nanana909 wrote: post #434
TeMPOraL wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the specific harm of TikTok? Is it because of China, or because of this style of social media apps? If it's because of China, then ban TikTok and subsidize a competitor app - but be serious about it. Be ready to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on keeping the app free and servers up for years, sponsoring hundreds of content creators, dragging celebrities in to produce exclusive content, burning ton…

> If it's because of China, then ban TikTok and subsidize a competitor app - but be serious about it. Be ready to spend hundreds of ..... Domestic competitors have already published their equivalents though, no subsidied required. It's not a very complicated app - they had clones up in months. Most popular Tik-Tokers already repost their content on these anyways. Why do we need to subsidize naything? This already exi…

> Why do we need to subsidize naything? This already exists.

Because the problem presented here is: government bans TikTok, teenagers become experts at using VPN apps to work around the ban.

Social media apps live on network effects - it's near-impossible to compete with a well-established giant directly. But this also means that, if you manage to pull a critical mass of users over from your direct competitor, most of the rest will quickly switch too.

Therefore, the solution to teenagers overcoming the ban with VPN is to prop up a domestic competitor fast - pump money into it until it becomes more attractive to the kids than jumping through VPN hoops to get to TikTok. Once you get there, the problem solves itself.

(This is ofc. only for the scenario where the problem is China, not TikTok-style social media.)

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#443

Post by scarface_74 »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #431
scarface_74 wrote: post #404

If only TikTok had a website at https://TikTok.com that had the same functionality….

Wouldn't the ban apply to all types of access? So at the end, this prevents the update-problem, but they still need to use a VPN.

They are now going to force all ISPs to block access in their state including wireless providers?

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#444

Post by npteljes »

kranke155 wrote: post #413
egorfine wrote: post #379

I live in a country where such a ban on certain "enemy" social networks was implemented a few years ago. What will happen is this. Teens will download a shit ton of VPN applications, the vast majority of which are specifically produced and marketed by the enemy to circumvent said ban. Then all users' phone traffic gets routed via the enemy VPN instead of just the social app's requests. Win-win for both sides: - the g…

TikTok is evil. Let’s stop with the whataboutism

TikTok being evil is not the main point of OP. Is the society best served with banning evil things, would be a better framing. Banning is a knee-jerk reaction, and an attractive revenge fantasy for many, but when we're talking about society (or raising children), banning without other actions doesn't make the thing go away. For examples, look at the attempt of banning alcohol, drugs or sex work.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#445

Post by PurpleRamen »

scarface_74 wrote: post #443
PurpleRamen wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the ban apply to all types of access? So at the end, this prevents the update-problem, but they still need to use a VPN.

They are now going to force all ISPs to block access in their state including wireless providers?

More like TikTok itself, maybe? I mean they are (probably) not going after the providers for transporting the downloaded app. They just plain out ban any operation of TikTok in Montana, and how this happens does not matter much. Though, it may depend on whether they understand that there is no real difference on a technical level, between the website and the app. Could also be they realize their mistake and just stop it altogether.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#446

Post by owenmarshall »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #354
tdaltonc wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of precedent, this seems like a pretty straightforward violation of the interstate commerce clause.

That's an interesting consideration. So if this were a company headquartered in Montana they could ban it, but if it's headquartered outside of Montana they can't ban it internally? Its a strange conundrum.

The interstate commerce clause has been stretched enough that even if ByteDance was based in Bozeman, and the Montana government still wanted to ban it for some reason, they might find legal obstacles.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#447

Post by TeMPOraL »

onionisafruit wrote: post #441
TeMPOraL wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, culture is downstream of economics and technology, so starting from the political end is going to be... an uphill battle.

It’s all a lazy river flowing in a circle. Everything is downstream of everything else.

It's not, but the analogy breaks down here anyway.

I.e. technically everything influences everything else, but some things influence others much stronger than the reverse.

My usual water-based analogy is that culture and society is like a water flowing downhill; economic situation (all the incentives people have) forms the landscape. Technology is what sculpts the landscape.

The flow of water does have its own influence - over time, it smoothens out rough edges, and can even forge its own path when the landscape is opposing water too hard. But mostly, the water conforms to the shape of the terrain. Same is with culture - it softens the behaviors of people following incentives, and can reform some aspects of the economy that just don't feel right - but mostly, the economy pretty much determines what culture develops, what people do, what people think. New technologies alter economic landscape quickly, but we don't have much control over when they show up or how the landscape is altered.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#448

Post by chrisandchris »

amelius wrote: post #393
egorfine wrote: post #379

I live in a country where such a ban on certain "enemy" social networks was implemented a few years ago. What will happen is this. Teens will download a shit ton of VPN applications, the vast majority of which are specifically produced and marketed by the enemy to circumvent said ban. Then all users' phone traffic gets routed via the enemy VPN instead of just the social app's requests. Win-win for both sides: - the g…

Meanwhile nobody is speaking about the real enemy here, which is data-brokers who will gladly sell any data of US citizens to evil countries. We would be better served by a total ban on user tracking technologies.

There are two types of countries in the world:

The ones with the companies that buy all the data and give it to the government without the users ok. The others, which don't do that with a company but rather a government institution.

Can't tell which is the evil one.

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#449

Post by RomanAlexander »

asynchronous wrote: post #268
groggo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the data? Doesn't iOS limit access to anything outside of the app? It has to ask to access contacts, photos, location. If you just use it to scroll through stupid videos, what does it even have access to?

IIRC the traffic is encrypted, all TCP/IP packets but going to bytedance servers. Without interacting with the app I have no idea what it could be sending but scary to speculate.

Everyone here should know it's very easy to bypass any TLS on a device you control and sniff the traffic. if there was some malicious data being sent there's plenty of people to ring the alarm bells: the people reverse engineering the internal API to make bots, the black hats trying to steal user data, the scrapers stealing content,...

Re: TikTok is now banned in Montana

#450

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #402
MadSudaca wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say establishing policies to reduce the use of TikTok in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest?

Let's say establishing policies to reduce the use of Fox News in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest? Let's say establishing policies to reduce the use of firearms in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest? (now, people are going to pop up with the obvious objections to those. What is it about US users of TikTok that suddenly makes the 1st Amendment and all tho…

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