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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#441

Post by mantas »

foverzar wrote: post #418
mopsi wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ironic how Russia is always assumed to be a passive unresponsive corpse with no concerns or perspective and memory of its own. Indeed, and apologists of Russia often take this position: in their mind, Russia has no will and no ambitions, and only reacts to what the US is doing. Whatever they do is always the fault of americans and never a manifestation of their own will. Here in Eastern Europe the perspective…

> Indeed, and apologists of Russia often take this position: in their mind, Russia has no will and no ambitions, and only reacts to what the US is doing. Whatever they do is always the fault of americans and never a manifestation of their own will. Thank you for that perspective, but isn't it similar to the mindset of north-atlantics? "Russia is acting totally unprovoked, we hoped for totally good neighborhood trade…

> I've been to Eastern Europe and my experience with it makes me feel like this is a European chauvinism mentality bit and a patting thyselves on the back.

Eastern european anti-Russian stance is chauvinism, but Russian imperialism worth defending? Niiice.

> I always chuckle when Europeans try to do some historical moral grandstanding. Yo, man, Europe is the source of the most of genocides and is the birthplace of fascism and nazism.

Really?

You may want to look into Golden Horde, Mongolians, Khmers, Chinese commies, Japanese empire, all sorts of shit in subsaharan Africa.. Not to mention pre-european Americas history.

> The people that had lived on the ground under your feet had been doing the same to everyone around, including Russians, all while being awfully proud of themselves.

If you want to play this game... Muscovites are a wee of a special crowd around here. Yes, people here are no saints. But some people take it a wee further. Everybody did wage war here and there. But not everybody went this far with „rape & pillage“ part.

And, despite victimhood card they love to play, modern Russia is mostly just a cruel expansion of duchy of Moscow. Rather than trying to defend from surrounding people. Unfortunately their tactics seem to work pretty well.

> Even more so when spoken of Baltic states

Alright, bring it on :) What are you going to throw at us? Nazi or Soviet war crimes where our local collaborators gave them a helping hand?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#442

Post by tpmx »

INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

> Let's remain neutral

Thankfully that opinion represent a minority here in Sweden nowadays. Good riddance.

The opinion on NATO vs "neutrality" after the Ukraine invasion was, to borrow a phrase from another comment in this thread, a mask off event.

Also: If NATO can't ratify Sweden we need to look at other ways to develop a nuclear deterrence strategy.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#443

Post by lazide »

carlosjobim wrote: post #334
lazide wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

> Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. Have you heard about Stalin? Where was he from?

Stalin was born in Georgia of course. But where did he live when he was doing his reign of terror?

Moscow.

Hitler was from Austria, but he still ran things from Berlin. And Berlin is where the power structure was, and still is.

It's always more than one man, even if the man is a dictator. The dictator is just the one who survives the power structures environment in a way to be 'the top'. And that power structure exists in a place.

The vast, vast majority of everything that actually happens under a power structure is done by everyone who ISN'T the dictator. And those folks don't just disappear when the dictator dies.

As to if a countries power structure represents a people or not, meh. It always says it does, and it draws resources, taxes, and conscripts from them. So regardless of any individuals take on if they are 'represented' or how that power is acquired, 'it is the people' near as I can tell.

And many of them are happy to murder anyone who says otherwise to prove it.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#445

Post by tpmx »

INTPenis wrote: post #406
red-iron-pine wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that really matters about Kaliningrad is the (very probable) nukes that are there.

Yeah but then it's game over. I used to worry about nukes, especially with all the suicidal people in the world, but then I realized that it's not worth worrying about because there's no way out. Anyone launches a nuke and it's game over, MAD.

It's not game over for the world if e.g. Russia nukes some remote part of Sweden/Gotland with a low yield bomb tomorrow.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#446

Post by lazide »

riialist wrote: post #419
lazide wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

Just please flag this if you see this comment as being too political, as in this forum we are mostly spared of these wrangles. But anyway, I would encourage reading "The Revolution Betrayed: What Is the Soviet Union and Where Is It Going? Преданная революция: Что такое СССР и куда он идет?" by the exiled Soviet Bolshevik leader Leon Trotsky to get perspective whether the peaople (Narodnost народность)were really repr…

To be (less) political, and apologies if this comes across as insensitive - all of those discussions (of which I've read many) are post-facto. The terrible things some power structures do to dissidents are indeed terrible.

My point, I guess, is that they happened. And the power structure that did it, did it from Moscow.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#447

Post by [deleted] »

foverzar wrote: post #207
mantas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we have to put up with Russia's expansions due to „grievances“ that some other expansions were denied or questioned? It's funny how Russia always pretend to be a victim when it's the aggressor. God forbid someone endangers „rightfully conquested“ territories :D

> Why put up with Russia expansion Why put up with NATO expansion? Russia's expansion is also totally defensive! wink-wink > It's funny how Russia always pretend to be a victim It's ironic how Russia is always assumed to be a passive unresponsive corpse with no concerns or perspective and memory of its own. I wonder if it's even hypothetically possible for people to try to fairly grasp that perspective, otherwise Eur…

[deleted]

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#448

Post by lazide »

BurningFrog wrote: post #310
prepend wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t reply to comment under this that claimed that people in Moscow were from all across USSR so I’m replying here. The Soviet Union was still ruled by Russians [0]… “ From 1919 until 1991, 89 members of the Politburo were Russians (which makes up 68 percent). In distant second were Ukrainians, who had 11 members in the Politburo, making up 8 percent. In third place are both ethnic Jews and Georgians, who had 4 me…

Not sure those numbers matter, since Stalin had the only vote that mattered 1924-1953. And he happened to be Georgian.

Also, the label Moscovite doesn't require being born there!

And Moscovite is indeed a bad word in many parts of the old Union.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#449

Post by FpUser »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

>"can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger"

I believe and hope that Putin's regime will collapse. After that the West will be very busy "lifting fingers" figuring out what to do with the huge country in disarray and full of nukes.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#450

Post by tasuki »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #315
908B64B197 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, one of the greatest feat of the EU and NATO is the integration of countries like Poland and Romania to the west. These two countries were economically and socially stunted by decades of communist mismanagement, failed socialism and outright theft and genocide from Russia. It's been truly incredible to see them grow and prosper.

And hopefully soon Ukraine

I'd like to hope so too, but hope is not enough. How do you see that playing out in reality?
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