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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

wsj.com

441–450 of 730 posts

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#441
post #347

California Universities just had the most applications in history. UCLA 145k applicants, UCSD 130k applicants. Respectively they are both down now to about a 3% and 5% acceptance rate due to the spike. Might be Covid holdovers due to a gap year, or with the economy as it is, out of state applications have dropped.

If students are more likely to apply to multiple schools than before (I believe that to be the case as competition has increased. I also have multiple cousins currently applying to UCs, anecdotal) than the total number of applications would appear to increase while total unique applicants may be steady or reduced.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#442

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

Unfortunately, Its almost a certainty that you're wrong about this.

They realize #3 has subsumed both #1 and #2 with the added twist of inescapable debt slavery with no deterministic way to complete those degrees. Education is no longer an investment, its a casino with the house winning 80% of the distribution.

I'm sure you've heard about weed-out classes where people fail not because of lack of knowledge, but from structure.

Apprenticeships are the only alternative to Professional certifications or educational degrees as job qualifiers.

The latter two options both have subsumed their original primary purpose and have exchanged those purposes for an overarching profit motive instead while stripping due process and agency.

If you know the material you should be able to pass no problem which is what people pay for when they go to college, but instead they are basically bait and switched which is a form of fraud, with no legal recourse in this case.

I'm sure some may argue that you can always sue, but look at ITT tech. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardconroy/2022/02/24/report-...).

I know people who have repeatedly failed Mechanics (Physics), while acing multiple heavy math courses above multivariate calculus.

Their biggest complaints were non-deterministic questions being asked on those tests, and structural course elements that induce causality spirals.

Example of the first being material the material taught is different from what was being tested with no adequate preparation, or in the case of inference there being multiple correct answers without enough information provided to deterministically come to a single correct answer, or in the case of heuristics where you build a context (or initial set of conditions) and that context should only lead to one answer but has multiple correct answers (with some uncommunicated assumption). They were all extremely upset because the tests amount to guesses, and some have repeated the same course every semester with different professors (same structural elements) over 3-5 years, even going so far as to take the course at different district colleges (same structural issues) before dropping out entirely due to the additional financial burden with no path forward.

Examples of the latter being, the answer of the second problem is dependent on the correct answer to the first, the answer of the third problem is dependent on the correct answer to the second. An arbitrarily uncommunicated rounding scheme guarantees most fail.

It might seem from the way I've said this that they just gave up, but it wasn't from lack of trying. Some escalated this from the Chairperson, to the Dean, to the Board of Directors over several years. Ultimately, no corrective action was taken, and its not a new story.

This is why people are generally not going to college and opting for other consistent options.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#443
I believe it’s a good thing this shift towards apprenticeships, we don’t really need so many university graduates (I’m talking from an Spanish point of view).

More and more the university is degrading its own nature, focusing on preparing “workers” instead of cultivating the arts of knowledge: research, philosophy, history…

It is good that people from university goes to the private sectors, but we are doing it the wrong way, we do not need CS to go develop for Funny Startup, we need developers (technical apprentships) and probably some software architects (CS) that focus on how it should be done.

Private sector is pushing universities toward work training and we are falling back in advances and knowledge. The fine art of learn to learn, the place where people that love the field go instead than the people that searches for a job and money.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#444
post #260

I'm wondering how many parents are reading this in the WSJ, and thinking something like: "That's great that those people are looking at paths other than college. Of course, my kids are going to college, for the college lifestyle experience, the networking, the pedigree, and the opportunities that will open up to them, in their rightful class."

I dont think you're looking at the crux of the problem. The real question is, how many people are hoping they're kids pay 40k/year for a humanities degree?

Of course college isnt devoid of all value and people want the best for their kids. Of course.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#445
It's clear college needs a reboot but there is also something pretty suspect about programs that just cram down the latest technology 'skills' that are likely to be soon obsolete. Changing the incentives so colleges are primarily paid from a fixed % of the first n years of salary from their graduates might be a good start rather than unbounded amounts from the government. Some level of public and employer matching probably also makes sense but if your graduates aren't earning than nether should the schools. Public money should pay for expanding the bandwidth of the school, not just adding administrators. Research and teaching probably need to be glass steagall'd. Tax-advantaged mega endowments need to be reigned in.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Free thinking and well rounded" aren't things that seem to correspond with many current U.S college environments though. Colleges need to cost less. Much less. And they need to return to free inquiry with more education, and less administration and propaganda and fake studies low effort departments. Then what you say will be much more true and we will be in a better place.

> Colleges need to cost less. Much less. Conservatives have waged a targeted attack on US education by shifting the federal and state tax burden to students. This began with Ronald Reagan and ended with the Koch network. Conservatives intentionally did this because they believe the traditional academic system in the US produces liberals and democrats. By shifting the tax burden to students, they have disincentivized…

"Conservatives have waged a targeted attack on US education by shifting the federal and state tax burden to students."

What? Do you mean college used to be paid for by taxes and now students have to pay for it and that's why college is so expensive? If not what exactly does that mean?

A link to a collection of ideological ramblings and one sided opinions isn't really "evidence" in any meaningful sense of the word. I could no doubt find a similar collection of faith based screeds that cherry pick facts in support of the conclusion that "Liberals have caused all this!" but it wouldn't be worth all that much.

We really need to move back into rational inquiry instead of ideological holy wars to solve the problems we collectively face in my opinion. And not just with education either.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#447
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that hasn't done manual labor really has no idea how rough it can be. I worked as an office-furniture-mover in my early 20s (Summers in college), and some days were pretty tough. Granted, that's pretty low on the manual labor skills spectrum, but even for a guy in prime physical shape, it's tiring and has elements of danger. Now that I'm double that age, the manual labor I've done like rewiring my house, insta…

I don’t think anyone idealizes those kind of physical labor jobs. Usually “the trades” is much more skilled manual labor: plumbing, hvac, welding, specialized mechanic work and repair, woodworking/carpentry, etc. No one says people should want a life of a mover, meatpacker, or ditch digger.

The end of Office Space did. Not that the ending was too serious a take, but I think there was at least a little sincerity to the idea that physical labor might be more enjoyable than a desk job for some people.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#448
post #129

Lately I have worked with many junior / mid level guys who studied CS in college. Meaning they graduated at some point in the last 3 to 5 years. All of them struggle with basic communication and tasks that involve working with other humans. It's like they spent all those years in some cave with no exposure whatsoever to the real world. I get that the goal of a CS degree is not to prepare you for the software industry…

I can say the same for those in humanities and the opposite for those in CS, anecdotally. The thing about CS is it has a clearly defined path that kids can prepare for. Expectations and conventions are known ahead of time and can be studied and learned (leetcode, code review, requirements gathering, sprint planning, etc.) A history major has no idea what conventions they will need to be ready for in the work force.

General communication and writing skills aren't unique to the humanities.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis.

It's amazing that now we're getting hit from both directions in this regard. The left would like minorities treated with kid gloves, and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical of white people or positive about minorities.

I don't know how we got to this place, but damn, it sucks. The 90s seem so quaint by comparison. I'm already looking back and thinking that 80s/90s were a really special era. After a bunch of crazy shit, and before the next wave. Not perfect, there were some incidents, but it just pales in comparison to what happens every year now.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#450
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans? Legality still pending AFAIK. Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government. Either way the point remains that the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy which makes them less risky for banks.

> Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans? Forgive, not pay for. > Legality still pending AFAIK. Oral arguments were heard by the Supreme Court a few weeks ago. > the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy It can, actually, though it's difficult.

It’s forgiveness, but it will still cost federal money, correct? https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125272287/student-loan-forgi...
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