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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power. yeah, except for finance, media, academia and politics. I do agree that straight white christian(ish) males do wield the most power in the other intuitions that matter (thought I'm drawing a blank on which those might be).

>except for finance, media, academia and politics. But those are dominated by straight white men. A simple demographic survey of Congress and org executives will show that. What are you talking about?

Did the janizary rule the ottomans or did the ottomans rule the janizary? The janizary held most if the powerful positions after all.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#442
post #282
post #202

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I've been wondering lately if it's down to the lack of agency on the part of average people. Like I see that America is in decline and has a decent chance of falling apart in my lifetime (I'm 34), but what exactly am I going to do about it? Nobody in charge cares, they're too busy fiddling. If you can't stop the decline and have to live it, why not try to enjoy what you have while you have it?

Worry less about America and more about your city, especially your neighborhood. Democracy does work. People do make a difference every day. Don’t let the internet get you down.

This observation, for me is a rationale for supporting efforts that shift power down. From federal to state, from state to county, from county to local gov, from local gov to individuals.

Public policy discussions that start with the assumption that the only possible solution is for the federal/state/county/local government to dictate policies from above are almost always non-starters for me. The higher up in the hierarchy the more evidence I need to support a solution at that level.

I'm not absolutist on this matter, there are concerns that are best addressed at all those various levels but I prefer to get there through bottom-up policy experimentation and iteration rather than top-down diktats. There are also ample lessons from history about the dangers of expansive government powers.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What is a women then?

That just drives home the point that we need clear, universally accepted terminology for when we are referring to mental identity versus physical attributes. I feel like a large part of the disagreement on policies towards transgender people today are manifestations of this ambiguity. Other languages do a better job than English, for certain.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#444
post #107

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No, thank you. There is no "rampant degeneracy". Just too many conservatives that make life harder than it should be for many people.

[flagged]

> This is a very offensive question for someone from my counter culture, Christianity.

Which recent US president was not Christian again? Is the correct answer "none of them"? It's very counter-cultural when the "leader of the free world" consistently shares (or has to pretend to share) your faith.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#445
post #76

Personally I think the word “counterculture” should be retired, as we no longer live in monocultural societies. We no longer gather round any shared fireplace. For a counterculture to meaningfully exist, it has to be somehow discordant with a dominant narrative - but there is no dominant narrative any more. The west is not ruled by the left or the right or the church or the state. We are all fragmenting off into echo…

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is ridiculous, LGBTQ is a minority. Trads are part of a waning majority. All evidence points towards LGBTQ always existing but just becoming more open. Trads being Counter Culture? That's the same double speak that gets us Citizens United and Right to Work. Where did these trads get their radically traditional values? From the majority.

>> LGBTQ is a minority Nope. The number of letters keeps increasing as more people are brought in. In schools these days it's trendy to be anything but straight.

Despite the number of letters increasing, it's still a minority. Additionally, the rate of popularity is slowing.

I am still on the fence whether or not this is a left-handedness situation. (The number of people who are left-handed sharply increased within 1-2 generations once we stopped beating children for primarily using their left hands. But this was generally not considered a social contagion or some grooming behavior from left-handed teachers or something.) If it is, then we should see identification level out within a generation or two.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really confused by this statement. I think queer culture can be countercultural depending. For example legislation is currently up in some states to ban dressing in a way outside your sex because drag queens exist, but even though drag queens have a tv show and a movie and stuff I'm sure it'll also probably scoop a butch lesbian or two or just a regular tomboy woman.

Legal status is terrible standard for whether something is counter culture. Outlawing something is neither necessary nor sufficient to be counterculture. Some legal and cultural boundaries overlap, some are orthogonal. There are a great many subcultures that would like legal boundaries shifted, and when they care enough they become interest groups participating in the democratic process. Even the blandest bland bland…

To expand on this, in a democracy-ish country law pretty much ALWAYS lags the cultural reality because legislatures basically never speculatively do things when it comes to cultural issues, they wait for enough people to want something for it to be an issue worth of the political platform. You might get some extremists pushing the envelope by catering to an extreme minority but even then they won't really be far out in front of the pack.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

Case in point—-Name one recent president that didn’t need go pander to christians to get elected. I’ve always found this tiring being a non-christian myself. Christians are not oppressed no matter what the terminally online right-wing on HN seems to think.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because people are finally willing to speak up for their rights and let them be visible members of society?

That's a little disingenuous. A lot of people are pushing for trans rights that goes well beyond being recognized as an equal member of society. There are 100% legitimate discussions to be had which get shouted down with accusations of bigotry.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#450
There are many countercultures that are alive and well.

One example: People who deliberately avoid social media, tape over webcams, use non-android, non-ios phones, who value their privacy. These people scrub the internet of their info, make aggressive use of GDPR/CCPA deletion requests. They do not want to be part of mainstream society for whatever reason. They are routinely marginalized by people around them, labelled as "weird", unjustly suspected (and accused) of all sorts of criminal activity under the premise that "privacy is for people with something to hide" - a train of thought that is concerningly common among younger generations.

Another example is anticonsumerism. People who do not use any streaming services nor purchase media. They don't blow money like there's no tomorrow on fast fashion, pointless trinkets from Amazon, exorbitant vacations that will be forgotten as quickly as they happened, or routinely eating out. These are the people with high 6 and low 7 figure net worths in their 30's driving cars that they paid $5k cash for that look like trash. These people avoid conspicuous consumption like the plague - why throw away so much money while painting a target on your back for criminals just for the approval of others, most of whom you don't even know? Screw a gym membership, exercise is free. These people are relentlessly mocked as cheapskates in spite of the fact that it's more about values than financial concerns.

Look for the hated, the despised, the mocked, and the belittled in mainstream culture to find counterculture. The counterculture movements of the 1960s went with those labels like peanut butter goes with jelly when described by the prevailing culture of the time.

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