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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#441

Post by trabant00 »

progman32 wrote: post #427
trabant00 wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances The cause of the crash is the Tesla. You are not allowed to stop on bridges, in tunnels and several other places. The crashes starting with the Nth car and not the 1st is normal. Reaction time of the first car eats into the reaction of the second and so on until there's no more time to stop. Understand that…

And yet, I make it a point to achieve enough space for reaction time + stopping to zero as often as possible. Everyone should.

Good for you. It is not always possible thought and this is why we have laws against braking or driving at significant lower speeds for no reason.

Creating a dangerous situation is not acceptable on the grounds that other drivers should be able to avoid it.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#442

Post by bfgoodrich »

foepys wrote: post #412
cm2187 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you crash into the car in front of you in your lane, the responsibility is yours both morally and legally. The only car which has a valid excuse is the car immediately following the tesla since the tesla inserted itself into its lane then immediately stopped, not allowing it to build a safety distance.

This is not the case in Germany. Unnecessary emergency breaking will have you be at least 50% at fault. You are putting other people into an emergency situation which is endangering everyone around you.

[dead]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#443

Post by ArteEtMarte »

apigalore wrote: post #426
kosievdmerwe wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car switching into an empty lane and then stopping hard even more. If a human driver did it deliberately as the Tesla did (since it was designed to pull over and stop) then I would consider it a criminal level traffic violation on the part of the stopping car.

I had an accident exactly like that. Car in front of me fully stopped all of a sudden as I was accelerating. This was right passed the lights. No traffic or anything in front him. I don't know why he stopped. My insurance told me he was 100% at fault.

Here in the UK, that happened to me on a roundabout. Elderly driver in front pulled out and then, for no visible reason, slammed on the brakes. I ran into the back of her.

It was deemed to be be 100% my fault. Here, if you run into the back of the car in front, it is always your fault. No exceptions.

It makes sense: you should always leave enough room to stop, so I couldn't really complain. But, if everybody did that on that particular busy roundabout, it would result in gridlock.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#444

Post by samwillis »

fullsend wrote: post #406
cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

In my opinion 90% of the reason we don’t have more accidents is because people are so predictable. Watch dangerous drivers weave through traffic - it’s only possible because everyone follows spoken and unspoken rules. Randomly stopping is not some “you need to be prepared, it’s your fault” moment.

The other day I was driving behind a car on a country road, he did an emergency stop to avoid a rabbit in the road. I avoided hitting him, I stopped about 2m from him because I was careful to leave enough space. If I had hit him I'm sure the insurance companies would have placed blame on me and it would have been my insurance that paid out. But ultimately it would have been his "fault" for doing something utterly unpredictable and dangerously stupid.

If it had been a large deer, of course he should have stopped, at that point it's the safety of the people inside the car.

In law for insurance purposes it needs to be clear cut, person behind is almost always at fault. But that doesn't mean they are the cause of the accident in all cases. There is nuance to these things, and part of that is that braking for a rabbit, or using Level 2 automation, is increasing the chance of an accident happing on the road.

If the way you drive increases the risk of someone driving into the back of you, even if they haven't left enough space, you are at fault in my mind.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#445

Post by MengerSponge »

suslik wrote: post #368
MengerSponge wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But motorcyclists rank just above bicyclists, and just below deer. Nobody actually gets in trouble for hitting them on the road. I would love to see manslaughter charges for more accidents. If I do a whoopsie and stab someone in my home, I'm not going to get off with a "oh my god I'm so sorry! I was tired and it was foggy." People driving should be extended the same courtesy.

Or just solve the problem by banning motorcycles. Motorcycles should stay on race tracks where they belong, not on foggy roads with tired commuters. Same with normal bikes, by the way: cycling on the same road with fast-driving cars should not be an actual phenomenon. I cycle to work every day, and love it, but would never do it if there wasn't a separate bike lane.

If someone's impaired driving in unsafe conditions results in an accident, they absolutely should be held liable. I'm tired of car-brained apologists.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#446

Post by MengerSponge »

mschuster91 wrote: post #415
Schroedingersat wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised. They're woefully unaerodynamic, and emissions standards are pretty lax for them. Something like a CBR300F is about half the emissions of a hybrid and a grom can get lower, but plenty of motorbikes are actually worse than a compact car and getting close to SUV territory.

> They're woefully unaerodynamic, and emissions standards are pretty lax for them. Still more aerodynamic and fuel efficient than someone riding a full-blown SUV to work solo. > but plenty of motorbikes are actually worse than a compact car and getting close to SUV territory. Not everyone drives a Kawasaki Ninja H2 R with 310 hp or whatever the top record is these days. Per German ADAC, the average motorcycle consume…

They might be worse for emissions that aren't CO2, but this whole discussion is moot. Ebikes could be the actual future.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#447

Post by robbiep »

herodotus wrote: post #2

I have a VW Golf and it has what it calls "adaptive cruise control". What makes it different from my older (simple) cruise control is that it will slow down and speed up again as necessary without my intervention. For example, if I set the speed to 70 mph and it gets close to a car ahead that is only going 65 mph, it will slow down and maintain what the software believes is a safe distance. Similarly, if a car in an…

My Mazda has adaptive cruise control - it has absolutely revolutionised my highway driving. It is intuitive because the heads up display gives you a distance to the vehicle in front; and you can set the distance you want to maintain. It tracks your progress/distance so you can see when it will slow/maintain and it behaves gracefully if someone cuts in

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#448

Post by __alexs »

cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

Suddenly stopping at high speed is generally considered (at least in the UK) dangerous driving and will get you prosecuted and probably mean you lose your license at the very least. If it results in a death then you can get a life sentence in prison for it.

Intentionally stopping inside a tunnel is a pretty clear cut case of dangerous driving over here.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#449

Post by progman32 »

darkwater wrote: post #389
scotty79 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want to pass a car you just drop down the speed on cruise control and widen the gap between the car you don't want to pass and you. It really doesn't matter if you are 10m or 100m behind him if you are not going to pass it. And if you get too far behind him you might bump up the speed a notch. And if somebody gets in the gap it's even better because they are going to eventually overtake him just like the…

So basically doing manually what ACC does automatically for you

The problem comes from having to mentally monitor an additional complex system (the ACC) in exchange for the meager attention savings gleaned from not having to closely adjust distance to the next car. That's "adjust", not "monitor". You'll still need to monitor distance to the next car either way, ACC is no excuse to drift off. For example, my non-Tesla ACC will randomly brake hard with no car ahead.

I personally use my ACC as an extra set of eyes. I set it and still manually adjust my speed using the +spd and -spd buttons on my steering wheel. If the car ahead changes speed and I somehow fail to notice it, my car will give me one more chance by automatically slowing down a bit. But every time that happens I treat it as an "oops" like airplane pilots do when GPWS (ground proximity warning system) alerts fire. It's great that automation averted the problem, but it became a problem due to the pilot's error.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#450

Post by bearmode »

cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

The drivers who crashed were obviously wrong, but stepping on the brakes in a 70+mph tunnel is incredible dangerous. The Tesla created this situation, and holds most of the blame.
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