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All poverty is energy poverty

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441–450 of 466 posts

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Man of the Hole poor? Was that a social poverty? And if not that specific instance, consider a theoretical lone hermit or tribes (say, the Sentinelese), not subject to any social pressures or constraints, but lacking in the necessities of a thriving life. Or similarly isolated peoples in preindustrial times. I'll allow that much poverty is socially imposed, particularly since the Industrial Revolution. I balk at…

Poverty is by definition a relative notion. A middle class occidental has access to culinary diversity, healthcare, transport speeds and indoor plumbing that not even kings could dream of a few centuries ago. Poverty is defined relative to the technological frontier - what is known and achievable in a certain age with reasonable effort and access to common resources. > Was Man of the Hole poor? > Was that a social po…

So, if you choose to define poverty as relative, that works. Checking via dict.org, the first given definition however is: "The quality or state of being poor or indigent; want or scarcity of means of subsistence; indigence; need." The second allows for a possible relative measure, in proposing both need and desire as conditions: "Any deficiency of elements or resources that are needed or desired, or that constitute richness; as, poverty of soil; poverty of the blood; poverty of ideas." (Based on 1913 Webster.)

http://dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=poverty>

That's limited support for the relative definition you propose, unless one chooses relation to survival and thriving itself, though your definition would suggest a societal relation.

I'll accept that Man of the Hole's circumstances being contemporary and having interactions with the broader human community introduce a social element. My intent was to consider his circumstances independent of that relation, which was why I'd proposed alternatives clearly absent that aspect. You've not addressed those in your response.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sort of link or title that you can recall or find?

I don't think that was one of the talks that was live streamed, so there won't be a recording. I'm traveling today so I'll have to look for it when I get back. Henry may have a website, I'll look for that too.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it.

Often talks of such nature even if extemporaneous or unrecorded are based on on a line of development that leaves traces elsewhere.

I'm not finding a homepage or blog. None is mentioned in his Wikipedia bio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer>

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stores of energy are frequently called fuels . There are other options as well. Stored work-product (e.g., banking heat or cold when possible for later use, materials fabrication). Potential-storage mechanisms (batteries, pumped hydro, kinetic, or others). Demand-side rather than supply-side dispatch --- varying activity rather than generation or energy provision to match available capabilities.

You don't get energy and materials back out of building things for which there is no demand. There is no way to store natural gas to meet one year's demand. There is no way to store electric power to meet one year's demand. Not even one month's. There is no way to store wind or solar power (see above). Nuclear fuels, of course, can be stockpiled, but you can't demand more power than the nuclear plants that exist can…

Energy storage can be challenging. It is far from impossible.

And of course, all energy conversions involve losses.

Most generally, excess electrical generation can be stored as fuels. The round-trip efficiency is low (~15--20%), but the storage time is proved to multi-hundred-million-year duration.

I've looked into the literature on one variant of this which dates to the early 1960s:

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/28nqoz/electri...>

Your other assertions are ... similarly flawed. Again, yes, challenges, but not outright impossibilities, and there are a number of other alternatives (flow batteries, molten-salt and other batteries, pumped-hydro, CAES) which you fail to consider at all. Several of those are already implemented at grid scale, others ... are at least technically possible, and may well prove viable.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? I've heard this, and I've heard it's a common myth / urban legend. There's a lot of similar myths, like that "interstates have a lot of straight sections to allow for an airplane to land in an emergency" I did read a well researched book (The Big Roads by Earl Swift) on the US highway and interstate system's creations, and I don't recall that being mentioned as a primary motivation. The main motivation for be…

> who at some point mentioned the anecdote that as a young man he had coincidentally been involved as a junior officer in an experimental military convoy from coast to coast in the 1910s Eisenhower whipped votes for the ‘56 Act on the basis of military mobilisation. It wasn’t a military project per se . And there were plenty of other motivations and votes. But the logic is far from urban myth. The 1910 convoys spurre…

That being said, highways are terrible for mass mobilization, mostly because they also represent pretty easy targets to bomb (for either attack or defense), and also because of how quickly they become congested.

They were amongst the first targets of the war in Ukraine, for instance.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#445
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit boosters usually understand that pedestrian friendly street design and higher density housing is also needed. The problem is NIMBYs who resist anything but single family house zoning. Not even duplexes are ok for these people.

I think trying to retrofit existing single family into urbanism is kind of a lost cause. Everything is built for it, and nothing is built for urban density and transit, at some point you might as well just stake a new city in the middle of nowhere (preferably off a major interstate and rail line that has water access) and build from scratch rather than having to bulldoze everything thats already there. The Northeast…

The trend is net migration from north to south, and east to west. Unfortunately this means more automobile dependent cities.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#446
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland's wealth is built on plunder and money laundering. That's not a model we should want to replicate anywhere else. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/reading...

Well, good thing that I am not using them as example of "how to get rich", but only on "how to keep yourself small and still avoid being invaded by a stronger power". But even if you want to talk about wealth of the countries, I'd be extremely eager to hear any example of any wealthy nation with a comparatively better moral ground than the Swiss.

There certainly aren't many, but Finland would certainly qualify.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get energy and materials back out of building things for which there is no demand. There is no way to store natural gas to meet one year's demand. There is no way to store electric power to meet one year's demand. Not even one month's. There is no way to store wind or solar power (see above). Nuclear fuels, of course, can be stockpiled, but you can't demand more power than the nuclear plants that exist can…

Energy storage can be challenging . It is far from impossible . And of course, all energy conversions involve losses. Most generally, excess electrical generation can be stored as fuels. The round-trip efficiency is low (~15--20%), but the storage time is proved to multi-hundred-million-year duration. I've looked into the literature on one variant of this which dates to the early 1960s: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredm…

Storing a year's worth of U.S. electric production in a way that one could then get it back in a similar time span is not merely challenging. It is infeasible. For one, because of the efficiency issues you mention, we'd need a lot more than a year's worth of electric production to "charge" the "battery", and since we can't dedicate all our energy production capacity to charging that battery, we can't charge it in a reasonable amount of time. Further, we'd need to have the production capacity that could consume that battery, if that battery were fuels made from CO2, say, and we'd have to have it idle except when we need it on an emergency basis -- that or we'd have to use the same kind of fuel as our primary source of electric power under normal conditions, but we're not really allowed to. Moreover, we cannot re-create fissile fuel, so this wouldn't be very dense fuel -- it would have to be chemical fuel meant to be oxidized with atmospheric oxygen. Chemical fuels are not dense enough that we wouldn't notice the storage facilities for them -- they would be enormous, consuming enormous amounts of materials and labor to build. The economic cost of all of that would be staggering -many many times the cost of equivalent amounts of energy that we currently produce-, and that cost is what makes it infeasible.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty is by definition a relative notion. A middle class occidental has access to culinary diversity, healthcare, transport speeds and indoor plumbing that not even kings could dream of a few centuries ago. Poverty is defined relative to the technological frontier - what is known and achievable in a certain age with reasonable effort and access to common resources. > Was Man of the Hole poor? > Was that a social po…

So, if you choose to define poverty as relative, that works. Checking via dict.org, the first given definition however is: "The quality or state of being poor or indigent; want or scarcity of means of subsistence; indigence; need." The second allows for a possible relative measure, in proposing both need and desire as conditions: "Any deficiency of elements or resources that are needed or desired, or that constitute…

And ... further thought.

(Which, I'll note, is because I'm trying to sort my own thinking on this, not to pick on your own explanation, which I find interesting...)

The opposite of poverty is typically considered to be wealth. And that also has at least historical and etymological roots connoting health and well-being.

Again, from dict.org, wealth: "Weal; welfare; prosperity; good."

http://dict.org/bin/Dict>

Weal, a somewhat archaic term which I feel deserves revival: "A sound, healthy, or prosperous state of a person or thing; prosperity; happiness; welfare."

http://dict.org/bin/Dict>

The etymology of wealth:

"mid-13c., "happiness," also "prosperity in abundance of possessions or riches," from Middle English wele "well-being" (see weal (n.1)) on analogy of health."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/wealth>

Which again suggests that the argument for a purely social connotation ... at the least goes against historical usage.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#449

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Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#450

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