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“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

nature.com

441–450 of 883 posts

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#441
post #125
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Editors, authors and reviewers will hopefully find the guidance helpful when considering and discussing potential benefits and harms arising from manuscripts dealing with human population groups categorized on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age,…

> How do you effectively discuss, and communicate, that for example sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance affects people of African descent, or skin cancer is prevalent in people of European ancestry? And that poor and badly educated people are susceptible to bad diets, lifestyles and medical issues that are a consequence of that? Don't worry, it says in the guidelines that race and ethnicity aren't real: > Race…

> Don't worry, it says in the guidelines that race and ethnicity aren't real:

Personally I find this criticism incredibly disingenuous. It sets up a strawman and doesn't even bother to consider the author's reasoning.

To be clear, I don't really mind whether "race" is a suitable word to descibe ethnic groups, heritage or whatever, nor do I know much about genetics.

No one would deny that the examples you mention aren't real. I'm not making an argument either way, but if someone were, it's easy to think of potential starting points. Such as, Historical reasons based on connections to racisms or eugenics. Maybe even biological/genetics reasons, like being based too much off of external characteristics leading to incorrect assumptions about heritage. Perhaps these terms over simply something with too many contributing factors to be useful without misinterpretation.

Wikipedia's descriptions of both suggest that the author's description is, at the very least, not uncommon.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#442
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well connected - and I think this comparison is becoming more apt each passing day. These statements and policies are just so… egotistical … for lack of a better word. What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is? How can you claim to respect all humans when you don’t respect the human cognitive ability to disagree? Thanks for posting.

Exactly, the process of applying scientific results to human society falls well within the realm of politics. We should not allow scientific bureaucrats to have a say in the kinds of policies implemented, but rather limit their contribution to answering empirical questions based on inquiries presented by actual politicians.

Which minority making up 13% of the population ...

One can lie with facts quite easily.

It used to be that liberals could explain this. Somehow in the last 10 years the current crop of policy leaders decided this is too hard to explain so instead we would ban wrong think and everything will be hunky dory.

This has lead to such hilarious things as people publicly saying how thankful they are to have 4 jabs and getting covid: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1559145992594784256 after saying the vaccines are 100% effective: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1377618480527257606

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are truly worried about electing people like Donald Trump they'll broaden education and, in particular, education in the hard sciences like maths and computer science to bolster critical thinking and logic. At that point we won't elect reality show hucksters who blatantly lie and foment sedition.

"If people are truly worried about electing people like Donald Trump they'll broaden education and, in particular, education in the hard sciences like maths and computer science to bolster critical thinking and logic. At that point we won't elect reality show hucksters who blatantly lie and foment sedition." If our choices at election time continue ro be between a shit sandwich and a shit sandwich without the bread,…

If there was an option with bread, it would have won in a landslide.

The competitors last round were shit sandwich vs shit sandwich you haven't tried yet.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lyn…

>I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? Yes, they should. >A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first. OK - talk to the authori…

The attitude that the public can’t be trusted with certain facts is a catalyst for all the wacked out conspiracy theories that have been cropping up.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#445
post #427

Reading the 395 comments so far, I see a lot of reference to the history of church censorship, but surprisingly, nothing at all about culture under the communist regimes of the 20th century, which I think is a much closer analogy. I spent a lot of time on the history of intellectual culture in the USSR back when it was a hot issue. The academic environment in the West today is giving me intense deja vu. Scholars are…

Yes but communism is in and religion is out, so making that observation is also démodé.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#446

No, science must pursue the truth, no matter where it leads. There is no such thing as a hate fact.

I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lyn…

What alternative are you suggesting? That the public be lied to? Misled? "Despite report, this disease is not primarily spread by red hair people"?. Then what happens when the truth does get out? Who do you think the public believes then?

It was pretty clear this approach was used during Covid. "You don't need to wear a mask", "Covid vaccines prevent infection" are just a couple claims that were made "for the public's own good".

Then when people found out they were lied to, they were then skeptical of everything said thereafter.

It's a terrible approach.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#447

I'm having difficulty reconciling these two opinions: 1. This ethics guidance is bad because it limits, or even censors, scientific investigation related to socially sensitive topics. 2. Social science has a reproducibility crisis and is mostly useless (a viewpoint commonly expressed in response to other articles). Does anyone hold both of these opinions, or is it just different people talking at different times?

Stereotypes (about all groups) and their accuracy are some of the most replicable in social science, yet would likely be considered hateful or insensitive.

Any measures of difference between people. Neoteny, IQ, etc.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#448
post #78

Can anyone actually think of an actual discovery that harmed people? I'm missing some actual examples of what they're trying to protect people from.

e.g. the eugenics movement, which led to forced sterilizations of people who many scientists of the time considered "unfit to reproduce." https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#section_3

Eugenics was never "discovered". It was a theory latched onto by politicians to deadly ends.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#449

Science must only be objective. Science should not care one whit about humans or what we want/think/feel. We should respect people, there's a huge difference. As far as I'm concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin for nature magazine or whatever they call themselves now. This entire blog post is them contradicting themselves repeatedly.

Science is only objective. But scientists are subjective and biased. The paper is not speaking about how people feel, they are speaking on the subjectiveness of scientists leading to the harm of minority people. What do you think happened in Nazi Germany?

But the article isn't saying "scientists should avoid being bias". It's saying "truthful findings that harm people should not be published".

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#450
post #6

Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics. [..] Advancing knowledge and understanding is a fundamental public good. In some cases, however, potent…

This alarmist comparison of yours would impress basically no one who has studied in relevant fields, such as bioethics. The relationship between ethics and research has a fascinating and sobering history, one full of richness, horror, and a good deal of quiet ego shattering awe at all the multitude of different ways of being human we have previously organised to eradicate.

The calls you see for greater attention to be paid to ethics in research are not coming from a sense of obsequioous piety and genuflection toward establishment interests wielding political power, but the exact opposite—a call to consider the effects on groups not wielding power, such as different minorities—and obscuring this crucial difference, the way your analogy does, comes pretty close to leaving your readers less informed about the issue of research ethic rigor than they were before encountering your comment.

Bioethics researchers are regularly coming across questions like this one:

Gay and lesbian people are no longer considered as having a disease or disorder by any reputable medical organisation, are experiencing, broadly, a widening acceptance from different societies and their governments. At the same time, there several prominent nations attempt to criminalise, suppress, ostracise and otherwise punish people for being gay or lesbian. Suppose tomorrow a set of genes are discovered that are strongly or even absolutely predictive of homosexual orientation. What would that look like for our society, when people could say have an embryological test that indicates whether their fetus is gay or not. Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents don't want to have a gay or lesbian child? What would the outcome of having a 'gay test' availble look like in the hands of oppressive regimes, like the Russian Federation. Would having that technology spark a literal genocide of sexual minorities there?

Perhaps you feel you can dismiss this as maybe you (mistakenly or not) picture your own country as unlikely to regress to legally enabling persecution of gay or lesbian people, and think issues outside your own country don't matter. I can tell you there is basically no country in the world that people in the trans community would feel safe in, if we took my above example of 'suppose someone invented a genetic test for being gay or lesbian' and replaced that hypothetical example to detect trans people and/or gender dysphoria instead.

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