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'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

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Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#441
If employees can get away with doing little work, that's a management problem. That still doesn't make it an easy problem to solve though.

To take the typical scrum/agile method as our context...

First and foremost, you're supposed to deliver things that have value. In most cases though, this is very much a "soft science". You can have an incredibly full backlog of items with things nobody asked for, as the feedback loop after a release is often non-existing and the team is working on the next thing already.

Likewise, issues (due to laziness or incompetence) are super easy to mask. The engineer can call out some unexpected dependencies, setbacks, unclarities in the story (shifting blame), hardware issues, the list of excuses is endless. It's not like the PM understands any of it, so "it is what it is". The story is moved to the next sprint, or is split in two.

Same for task estimation. In particular with a dynamic where the PM is technically clueless, which is common as a team holds a wide variety of tech skills nobody can understand in total, it's easy to inflate estimates. There's little to no incentive to stretch your productivity, in fact it's a type of self-harm. Because next you'd be expected to deliver at that stretch level forever. Better to under-perform a little, create some breathing room.

Quality: often unmanaged, as amount of story points delivered is typically a primary metric.

Now combine all this and you can have a team looking busy/productive whilst it's delivering nothing of value, too late, and with poor quality. Without setting of any alarm bells. The lack of value, productivity and quality is close to invisible.

Now imagine having dozens if not hundreds of such teams, lol.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#442
Facebook hired too many people during the pandemic and then got hit by the iPhone privacy change that killed their revenues. Facebook's stock is roughly 1/2 what it was a year ago. Also if increase your headcount by 62% obviously people won't have enough work to do.

"To be sure, the Covid-induced pandemic saw Meta embark on a massive hiring spree, growing its number of full-time staff from 48,000 at the end of 2019 to more than 77,800 — a 62 per cent jump."

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#443
post #165

By the end of my employment at Google I was not working very hard. Probably a few hours a day, mostly doing whatever I felt like doing. My managers consistently gave me "meets expectations" regardless of how much I achieved or how hard I worked. However, any time there was an emergency related to my function, I had everything required to jump in, fix serious problems, and then get out of the way during the cleanup th…

I have a feeling this extends to several areas in Google. I come from the GDC side of things and have the exact same experience. To keep my job requires very minimal effort on my part. In fact, nowadays I'm punishing myself by trying to do anything "above and beyond." This is mostly due to the rapid growth of committees and the struggle for power that has come out of it (i.e., I'm more likely to be denied by a change…

Why do you look to your job for challenges. Why not simply look at it as a way to put food on the table and use the rest of your time and resources to seek out other challenges?

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#444
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started as a test engineer on an SRE team (ads database, which I think no longer exists), did a mission control rotation, and then sort of found a way to be a software engineer (non-SRE, which pissed off the SRE leadership) and run my own projects in prod without any real oversight (that was exacycle- using all the idle cycles in prod). I used my knowledge of SRE and my good connections with SRE to run my service w…

> which pissed off the SRE leadership Really? I thought Googlers could move internally with little friction and yada yada. Is that just propaganda?

No, you can move easily, which is why he could piss off his current leadership without consequence.

Being able to move doesn't mean your current manager will be happy about you moving. The "easy" part of the process means that they just can't do much to sabotage you or your future.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This resonates strongly with my experience at Google as well. Specifically in ads, you got the feelings that none of the product leadership used the product or tried to drive a direction for where the product should be going. The end-result was full-on Conway’s law (every team having their own separate pages), weird overlaps between a bunch of things (P-Max, Smart and App campaigns) and no real goals except maximizin…

It must be a different eponymous law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Hah, my bad. I meant Conways’ law

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody wants to pay me $300k to work 4 hours a week, I'll happily take the deal. As long as that's the actual acknowledged situation and not "most of your job is pretending to work and making people think you're important". I wonder how successful a lot of companies would be if they openly cut required hours in half.

If somebody wants to pay me $300k to work 4 hours a week, I'll happily take the deal. Would you take that over $300k to work 40 hours doing something you actually care about? I don't think I would.

I've come to enjoy doing things other than coding more than I enjoy writing code, but they don't pay nearly as well when done professionally. I'd rather code for four hours and then do those things with the free time.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#447
post #28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. You can’t make this claim without saying that your managers are incompetent all the way up to the C level because it means nobody was measuring performance even though that’s a core job requirement.

It is extremely rare for management, especially higher levels, to have any method of distinguishing smart and hard working people from duffers or from “managing upwards” big talkers. Git logs sort of help much interpretation is so context sensitive that the signal is blurry. So while measuring performance might seems like a core job function, de facto it is not. Also people that find this thread interesting should jo…

> Also people that find this thread interesting should join Blind.

What is "Blind" ? Is it some sort of think-tank ?

If the manager has done a good job he/she has hired people that are more knowledge and experienced in their specialization fields then the manager. This is only true for "intellectual" work though, if the employees do physical work, like laying bricks, you can measure performance on how many bricks where laid.

For example, one employee might have spent 3 weeks carefully reading code to find a bug. Not a single code push for a whole month. And might not even have found the bug. But likely found lots of unused code that everyone been too scared to touch. So if you're measuring performance by LOC written, that person could end up on the nagive.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#448
post #299

Quoth Zuck: > “And part of my hope by raising expectations and having more aggressive goals, and just kind of turning up the heat a little bit, is that I think some of you might just say that this place isn’t for you. And that self-selection is okay with me.” Wow. Just. Wow. Why not inject some more dysfunction into an already strained relationship with employees and callously but passively aggressively deal with a s…

'too many employees, but few work'.. this is misleading.. given the spin, you might think this indicates that they hired these people to do specific line-of-business things, and they didn't get done. However, what actually happened was they hired a bunch of people to do.. something.. but they weren't sure what.. all they were told is that they need to hire them.. then they realized they might have 'a down quarter or two'.. apple's killing their advertising business, and they're thinking.. 'hey wait a minute.. our headcount's gone up.. no one in middle-management seems to know what they're doing (which is actually our fault.. but we can't say that), so we'll call the people we hired lazy unmotivated clowns and get rid them that way.' Cue the high-fives.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#449
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a FAANG and I can tell you it's not nearly so positive as this. It was shocking coming from startup world. It's not so much "gee I only have 4 hours of work to do this week" It's...well, it's impossible to say how long it takes to do anything in particular, so I shouldn't feel stressed trying to get it done... oh there's actually no real management style/pressure to get things done here? Promo is seniority-based?…

I don’t see how giving an up-leveled employee time to adjust to a new responsibility scope is a bad thing. Working under conditions of pressure and stress provides few long term benefits and is the refuge of those who don’t have the smarts to perform well and need to look like they do.

> I don’t see how giving an up-leveled employee time to adjust to a new responsibility scope is a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing, but the parent you are replying to never said otherwise. They were talking about a fake performance rating that is given for political reasons.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#450
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started as a test engineer on an SRE team (ads database, which I think no longer exists), did a mission control rotation, and then sort of found a way to be a software engineer (non-SRE, which pissed off the SRE leadership) and run my own projects in prod without any real oversight (that was exacycle- using all the idle cycles in prod). I used my knowledge of SRE and my good connections with SRE to run my service w…

> which pissed off the SRE leadership Really? I thought Googlers could move internally with little friction and yada yada. Is that just propaganda?

At the time (2009 or so) it was hard to leave SRE and be a SWE because SRE had a hard time keeping employees given the oncall and nature of the role. My mistake was to tell people it was easy to leave SRE, which the head of SRE didn't like. He called my new manager and chewed him out. To his credit, my new manager told me I wasn't in trouble, but to be more circumspect when dealing with predatory leadership.
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