We're going to need a lot of solar panels • Hacker News Board

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#441

Post by ratww » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:27 AM UTC

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #424

stewbrew wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a tiny detail. We live in a passivhaus. We hardly ever heat. Improving insulation of old houses is an important aspect here. Reducing energy consumption is as important as generating and storing energy.

Quoted post unavailable.

The point is not that everyone should live in a passivhaus. The point is that better insulation can help reducing energy consumption. Not best: better. Those are two different words. No, you don't need a passivhaus, but the passivhaus example, which barely needs heating, is useful for demonstrating the efficiency of insulation.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#442

Post by pawsforthought » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:27 AM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #53

jjk166 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds of square km is not a lot, and the ecosystems where these systems would be installed are typically not rich havens of life. The US's power consumption would require about 6000-9000 sq km of solar panels (assuming ~15% efficiency) For comparison in the US there are about 13000-33000 sq km of parking lots, 93000 sq km of alfalfa cultivation, 69000 sq km of fallow agricultural land, and the mojave desert is abo…

> parking lots This is how much of downtown Tulsa, OK is covered in parking lots: https://i.redd.it/ukzcn1xx6cc91.jpg There is no technological problem to covering a parking lot in PV, it's a question of the political will and money to do it.

That one image very powerfully captures the total and utter idiocy of car-centric development. Imagine if that thin sprinkling of actual buildings were reconfigured into one dense, car-free urban core…

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#443

Post by spaniard89277 » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:32 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #214

WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The communists have repeatedly done the equivalent, which is nationalizing industries. It never, ever produced better results.

France is buying out the remainder of EDF (France’s commercial nuclear fleet operator) for €10 billion, so we’re going to get another chance to observe the experiment. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/19/france-to-p...

It's not going to be any different. They're buying EDF because the current situation of their nuclear capacity is a shitshow.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#444

Post by brtkdotse » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:36 AM UTC

toolz wrote: post #236

mmaunder wrote: post #153

The trouble with our current system is that the answer to environmental catastrophe is to make more stuff. And the entities that make the stuff have an incentive to pursue models that see them continue to make that stuff and sell it. Creating a solar panel that never needs to be replaced is a business failure. Selling the same number of electric cars next year, instead of more, is a business failure. Not consuming mo…

> The sooner we show some humility and realize that we’re the problem Why do people just love to hate on their own existence? How many extinction events have there been that just wiped out the vast majority of species far before humans even existed? If earth is to flourish, grow and continue it's trend of supporting ever more complex forms of life - it will be humans that can make that happen. In the absence of human…

> How many extinction events have there been that just wiped out the vast majority of species far before humans even existed?

Those weren’t caused by the species themselves though

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#445

Post by brazzy » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:38 AM UTC

zizee wrote: post #116

leobg wrote: post #79

What would interest me: Can I do this locally, at the site of the consumer? Take the unused PV output of my house in summer to fill my house’s tank with natural gas for use in winter? Is that something that would be technically feasible today?

Why convert to gas for heating later when you can just store heat itself?* There was an article/discussion here recently about heat batteries using sand to store heat for months, to use for heating in winter. This tech seems fairly simple to implement at scale. https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-07-19/sand-battery-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32006791 *This is a rhetorical question, I'm sure everyon…

Storing heat for months requires really, really good insulation, and insulating many small stores is far more expensive than insulating one big store (essentially a square-cube thing).

So this kind of thing may only be viable for industrial processes.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#446

Post by midasuni » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:40 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #399

jnsaff2 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, looking at your numbers my hunch is that you need better insulation. I know a person who has about 10kWp installed on a passivhaus here in latitude 59N and says that having a heat pump is overkill for them.

> better insulation better insulation is not cheap and therefore not everyone can afford to do it. Also the same people who want renewables are usually opposed to building new housing so there's that.

In the U.K. the people who want renewables tend to be under 40s that can’t afford to buy a house. Those that actively don’t want renewables tend to own their own home and may have a couple the let out.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#447

Post by brazzy » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:41 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #406

we're gonna need nuclear no matter what the "green" power people say

No post body was provided.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#448

Post by midasuni » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:45 AM UTC

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #424

stewbrew wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a tiny detail. We live in a passivhaus. We hardly ever heat. Improving insulation of old houses is an important aspect here. Reducing energy consumption is as important as generating and storing energy.

Quoted post unavailable.

I lived in a new house for 5 years from 2016. We keep the house warm (21-22), but even then the radiators were rarely on, insulation was great.

On the other hand in summer temperatures overnight we’re still in the 28-30 range in the west facing rooms even at midnight.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#449

Post by distances » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:48 AM UTC

lotharcable wrote: post #123

ben_w wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A global grid was my favourite solution until recently. The problem is that it needs the combined cables to have cross section in the order of a few (3?) square meters (at 640 kV), and that in turn is in the order of 52 years of global copper production (we make more aluminium than copper but Al is a worse conductor). Using even higher voltages makes everything much easier, and the cables’ combined cross sections may…

Money != Wealth You can go ahead and force every billionaire to sell off everything they own and hand it to the government and all you end up with is a one time boost to government tax receipts. That's it. One time boost. Next year those billionaires will be gone. There won't be new ones. And it won't create any more food. It won't solve shortages. It won't create more solar panels. It won't create 1 mile of copper l…

How is this related to the parent comment? I don't get what you are talking about here.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#450

Post by midasuni » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:49 AM UTC

illiac786 wrote: post #376

KingOfCoders wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how "better insulation" is something "renewable enthusiasts conveniently forget". We need better insulation either way.

I think what this person meant is the renewable enthusiasts treat insulation as something easily done whereas it will take 100 years to insulate the majority of houses in Europe in my view…

You can usually improve insulation by popping down to the local DIY store and buying some rolls for your loft making a big difference.

Of course you can only do that once. And if you’re a landlord why would you pay your money to insulate when you wont save any money as your tenants are the ones paying the bills.