If certain groups of students are excluded because of their ethnicity, that is wrong and should be condemned. If certain groups are excluded because they did not have a lifestyle that nurtured their talent and therefore do not meet the requirements to join, their lifestyle needs to be structed differently so that then next time around they do meet the requirements. In the meantime, holding Asian students back is not going to solve the problem of other student having parents who don't recognize the importance of their education.
The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
441–450 of 922 posts
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#442Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never been convinced that more money for schools produces better results. Sure, that means nicer buildings, but how does that improve education? In Washington State, the teachers finally got their "fully funding" proposal enacted, which was supposed to solve all the funding problems, including big raises for teachers. There's been zero change in results.
My MIL is a teacher, and she's taught at wealthy schools and poor schools. Wealthy schools have more money, but they actually often have less - if a school's average socio-economic class drops below a certain point, there's a slew of federal funding available and she often had more resources in a poor school than a wealthy one. The poorest schools are often the middle-class - those too wealthy to qualify for the fund…
I grew up in a pretty wealthy area. The public school was good. The private school had this vibe of prestige but in practice performed a lot worse on things like AP tests
A weird state. I don’t think parents knew how to navigate it or even interpret the state of things. The marketing and formal dress code made it seem like the better choice. Suckers…
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#443Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never been convinced that more money for schools produces better results. Sure, that means nicer buildings, but how does that improve education? In Washington State, the teachers finally got their "fully funding" proposal enacted, which was supposed to solve all the funding problems, including big raises for teachers. There's been zero change in results.
I mean, even assuming they spend all the money on better buildings -- if the building is so poorly made that the heat or air conditioning don't work, then that will be distracting, resulting in worse education. The public school in the town I grew up in had lectures in these shitty trailers that were supposed to be temporary (spoiler: they became permanent). They couldn't afford to hire enough teachers to do small cl…
I went to public school for a couple years in those trailers. It didn't make any difference. Went to public schools with and without A/C (in Arizona). Didn't make any difference.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#444There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…
> how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools. This is an oft repeated myth. In addition to property taxes, school funding is supplemented by state and federal budgets…
In my county, the all white schools have extremely well-funded PTAs, parents willing to volunteer in the classroom, and students who receive at-home tutoring from an early age. A couple of miles away, Title I schools that serve predominantly underprivileged families do not have the same luxuries. The actual resources available to these schools remains significantly lower. Even in a county that ranks among the best-funded school systems in the country, federal funding does not bridge the gap between the north and south.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#445Earlier quoted context omitted.
> how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools. This is an oft repeated myth. In addition to property taxes, school funding is supplemented by state and federal budgets…
> This is an oft repeated myth. In addition to property taxes, school funding is supplemented by state and federal budgets, in inverse proportion to property taxes, so that racial differences in per-pupil funding are negligible: This is not my experience. I chose a more expensive house with higher taxes because the schools are better. They are better funded than those in the surrounding areas. Sure the Federal Govern…
>I chose a more expensive house with higher taxes because the schools are better.
The schools are better, but if you look at per pupil spending I'm willing to bet it's not due to spending. Typically the worst schools get the most most money from federal and state sources, far outstripping any differences in property taxes.
Better schools are a function of better parental involvement, everything else is a distant second.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#446Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never been convinced that more money for schools produces better results. Sure, that means nicer buildings, but how does that improve education? In Washington State, the teachers finally got their "fully funding" proposal enacted, which was supposed to solve all the funding problems, including big raises for teachers. There's been zero change in results.
How are you quantifying “results” here?
Pick any measure you like.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#447There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…
In NYC they also flatten all Asians into one group and say the “gifted” programs aren't diverse enough because a high percentage are Asian. As if implying Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc. all have the same life experience, cultures, advantages, disadvantages… Also you nailed it on the property tax point. Often overlooked as the biggest issue with education. A similar sized home in a good school district ca…
> In NYC they also flatten all Asians into one group and say the “gifted” programs aren't diverse enough because a high percentage are Asian. As if implying Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc. all have the same life experience, cultures, advantages, disadvantages…
TBF that was originally something deployed by asian-american populations so they had enough of a cooperative block to make an impact: individual cultural groups were too small to be represented, but a pan-asian block had sufficient power to achieve representation and make political progress.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#448Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my city, the worst schools tend to pay a good 20% better than the best ones, for teachers. They get lots of federal and state aid. People still usually prefer not to work at them, if they have options, because the work environment is terrible.
Why is the work environment terrible?
Good teachers prefer to work at schools where students are more responsive. Usually, this happens when parents of students involve in kids' education.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People point out disparities as evidence that there aren’t equal opportunities That’s a very low bar if you take population level disparities and assume it’s a lack of equity causing this. You’re talking about having a deep understanding of incredibly complex systems layered on top of one another. Equality of opportunity is never possible. We’re all born with different genetics. Anything less is just arbitrary line…
> That’s a very low bar if you take population level disparities and assume it’s a lack of equity causing this Are racial disparities socially determined or not?
Thomas Sowell has a great book on the subject called Discrimination and Disparities. There are interviews where he goes over the high-level ideas in the book if you don't have time to read it, but the basic punchline is that this: no two populations have ever been equal, and only sometimes is that because of some form of oppression or because of genetic differences. There are a multitude of cultural and environmental differences that cause disparate outcomes, and unless equality of outcome is your goal those differences shouldn't bother you.
Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)
#450Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does "socially determined" mean, and what are the alternatives?
The best analogy I can think of is sports. In sports, the rules are whatever we say they are, that’s the part that’s socially determined. Lebron James is a amazing basketball player, due to a combination of his genetics and his hard work. But there’s a parallel reality wherein basketball was never invented. And people enjoy sports like horse racing or marathon running, where he would never be able to be world class g…
Does social determination include culture? That's a greater determinant of outcomes than skin color, as the example of outcomes between African Americans and Nigerian immigrants indicates.