Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#441

Post by lrem » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:32 PM UTC

kken wrote: post #261

riedel wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. They do only care about short term profit. They triggered the chip crisis in Germany by stopping there orders and then restocking. I am not sure if any government can fix this.

>Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. How about the three fabs that Bosch has in Germany? Or Infineon, X-Fab, Globalfoundries, TI, Prema, Elmos (now Siltech), Vishay, Nexperia?

Which of them can make a 2010-level ARM chip?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#442

Post by welterde » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:35 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #405

audunw wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want Europe to be as attractive as headquarter location of mega-companies as USA is, you may have to compete with USA on a lot of policies (taxes, labor laws, etc) that would turn Europe into a different kind of society. Do we really want that? Many of these mega-companies are publicly listed. Norway alone owns a significant amount of stock in some of these companies. I'm not sure we have a problem. But I'm no…

>If you want Europe to be as attractive as headquarter location of mega-companies as USA is, you may have to compete with USA on a lot of policies (taxes, labor laws, etc) that would turn Europe into a different kind of society. Do we really want that? No, but do you really have a choice? When you're selling tech products, you're competing on the international market, against everyone, including USA and China. If you…

> That's why Europe is so underrepresented in big-tech internationally and the biggest wealthiest European companies are fashion related(LVMH) where the selling point is the name brand without any substance.

Not sure market cap is really the metric here (and only 2 of the top 10 are currently fashion related, the rest is pharma, semiconductor, food, ecommerce, banking, etc.), since those can be easily inflated to completely unreasonable levels and are more an indicator of marketing success than anything else. Maybe take a look at the export statistics and you'll find machines and chemicals taking up a very large fraction.

However much more interesting is how much of the global economy depends on certain companies: Siemens automation (larger market share than the next two competitors combined). Chemicals - BASF is currently the largest chemical producer in the world (with also the largest chemical production complex in the world being located in Germany). Semiconductors - Without ASML, Zeiss and Trumpf (nevermind all the chemical companies) you will have a hard time producing the chips in your iPhone or any modern desktop/laptop. No matter how much I am not a fan, but SAP might also be of relevance in a few companies..

Also Nokia and Ericsson are not gone from the mobile space, they just focus more on the backend stuff. So while your phone might no longer be from them, there is a decent chance that your phone will be talking to a Nokia or Ericsson device over the air (especially since Huawei hit a bit of a snag in the US and parts of the EU).

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#443

Post by Shadonototra » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:37 PM UTC

rat87 wrote: post #381

alaricus wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on. And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?

Yes it doesn't revolve around America vs Russia You have to consider the EU vs Russia. It's not in EU's or Germany's intrest to keep trading with Russia

It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia

It is not in US's interest to let EU keep trading with Russia

USA wants the EU to be their giant marketplace where they can sell their culture and products

USA also wants to weaken Russia so they can finally contain China North, East, West and South

Seems like you were sleeping the past century, blurry days ahead!

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#444

Post by makin17 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:38 PM UTC

madrox wrote: post #297

FooBarWidget wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A connected world is not a guaranteed sufficient condition for peace. But that does not mean it's not a necessary condition for peace. One could argue that without economic interconnectivity, Europe could have fought WW1 much earlier, or would have had wars much more often.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

I would not go so far as to call selling our time to produce what ads and marketing create demand for as free trade.

Polls show little interest in making McDoubles and tons of interest in healthcare and education jobs.

Somehow there’s always financing for cheap consumer jobs while costly jobs face more uncertainty: https://twitter.com/sama/status/1505597901011005442

The market is unfalsifiable like a religion now. Free trade is captured by rent seekers who believe past success in one special context makes them the best person to handle any context. The memes are no longer based in historical religion, but the lack of critical challenge and blind allegiance to normal humans self aggrandizing story, being dictated at by they who live privileged lives far away is as traditional as it gets.

I’d like to see a rescope of political power that better conforms to where all this value comes from: https://www.unlv.edu/news/article/future-american-city-state

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the...

Coddling certain sensibilities and foisting nostalgia driven politics on the masses, tacit ageism towards youth through hand me down gossip and schooling of industrialist owners who need cheaper labor, are hardly hallmarks of a free society.

We moved manufacturing into rural areas a century ago seeking cheaper labor, then overseas for the same reason. Human agency is dictated by financiers empowered by political tradition. There’s no theory I know of that concludes they are absolutely making sound choices for anyone but themselves. The blind faith in grand schemes thing has got to go.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#445

Post by lrem » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:39 PM UTC

PKop wrote: post #434

rat87 wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't thwarted at every turn. Maybe we should have but we didn't, at least not at every turn. We did warn then it was a bad idea. Other countries especially countries in Eastern EU warned them it was a bad idea. And lo and behold trying to bring peace through trade didn't work with Russia. Unless Germany wants to exit the EU like the UK it does have to take the interests of other EU countries into account, many o…

US sanctioned Swiss and Russian suppliers constructing the pipeline, and debated in Congress and Whitehouse various policies to ban it's activation. >it was a bad idea It isn't a bad idea. It's a very good idea for Europe. Cheap plentiful energy supply from your neighbor and expanded economic relations would be a very good thing for making Europe economy strong. Sanctioning Russia is hurting Europe severely. They hav…

It was a very bad idea. "We don't need nuclear power, we have Russian gas" is pretty hard to defend as an idea, really. Especially after Russia went pretty overt in its ambitions to re-establish the empire. And the invasion of Georgia was years before construction of Nord Stream 1 started and Nord Stream 2 went into planning. The annexation of Crimea years before the construction of Nord Stream 2 started.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#446

Post by klysm » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

topspin wrote: post #255

throw457 wrote: post #4

Just wait 10 years until we get rid of it again like we did with AMD and Infineon.

Fab operators are hedging against future geopolitical conflict with China and how that will impact Taiwan. Many will scoff at this, but Intel, Samsung and others are putting serious money on it. The people that can still make devices when Taiwan is blockaded by Chinese battle fleets will make bank.

It's unfortunate that there will be an economic incentive for that to occur.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#447

Post by BurningFrog » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

oezi wrote: post #437

FooBarWidget wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

This is all fine and good until the Chinese government is leading China down a path of aggression abroad or to a genocide such as in Xinjiang. As a German believe me if I tell you that being under a totalitarian regime can backfire pretty quickly. It took Hitler only 6 years. Putin took longer but hundreds of thousands are dead for just this year alone.

The Chinese lived (well, far from all did...) 27 years under Mao.

They know about murderous totalitarian regimes!

The Mao background may also mean they appreciate even minor progress more than us.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#448

Post by dorgo » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:47 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #396

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

>> Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. Nah, this is a bargain. Rather than chasing the technology for 50 years, they just waited until it's already mature (2nm may be the end of the road?) and spend a few billion after all the development has happened elsewhere. BTW Germany is already home to some fairly advanced non-EUV fabs with Global Foundries.

> (2nm may be the end of the road?)

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit :

>However, it has been shown that access to quantum memory in principle allows computational algorithms that require arbitrarily small amount of energy/time per one elementary computation step.[6][7]

Not the end of the road.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#449

Post by dwallin » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:52 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #418

eddieplan9 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the false dichotomy? Does political freedom automatically contradict with economic prosperity for some reason now? Born and raised in China, I fail to see how the last 10 years of erosion in freedom has yielded any better results economically. Please don’t buy the government propaganda that legitimizes everything from stupid to evil as a price that has to be paid to raise people out of poverty.

Nowhere did I say that economic freedom and political freedom are mutually exclusive. What I do protest however is the idea that only political freedom can be considered a legitimate form of freedom. I am making the case that: - economic freedom is an equally valid form of freedom. - societies can make up their own minds on what sort of freedoms they value most. As for "erosion of freedom in the last 10 years in Chin…

- societies can make up their own minds on what sort of freedoms they value most.

This is only possible peacefully if you have political freedom.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#450

Post by dgellow » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

cute_boi wrote: post #69

dgellow wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you care about the origin of the company?

People living on democracy have right to question when their money is being spent in enriching the country which has habit of meddling foreign policy?

You can question whatever you want. That doesn’t answer why it matters that Intel has their HQ in the US.

It’s not like there is such a large choice of companies if you want to be able to produce chips in Europe.