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When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

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Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#441

Post by naikrovek »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #370
grepfru_it wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Microsoft culture spilling into the real world. There were several times when I pointed out a fix for a flaw or problem we were suffering from and was mocked and told it’s a silly idea that I shouldn’t be wasting time on. Fast forward 1-3 months later and that same person is singing the praises for the same idea someone else “came up with”. Except it was me shopping my idea around. Seeing the tweet and the th…

Yeah I get the feeling that the general "tone" around Microsoft is "making sarcasm your defining personality trait". Maybe that flies in Seattle, but in the world of silicon valley, we've moved past caveman-like sarcasm into the superior snark and passive-aggression personality traits.

yeah I get the feeling that people look for any reason to shit on Microsoft then do it with glee, without care about the human beings on the receiving end.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#442

Post by mav88 »

ripley12 wrote: post #328
mav88 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a liar. The entire thread on github [1] shows that it is a technical discussion about the unacceptably slow performance of virtual terminal sequences in Windows. Solutions are kicked around and debated until a Microsoft person steps in and calls what is essentially a weekend fix a 'doctoral research project' and accuses Casey of being 'combative'. Casey is rightly annoyed by this, closes the bug report and goe…

Not a liar. Casey was being combative, and still is . He keeps mobilizing his entire community against a small team because 1 GitHub issue didn't go the way he wanted. I can't believe this is still going on.

Yeah man, Casey just needs to leave poor Microsoft alone. Can't he see it's completely helpless against his good code and the people who follow him online?

I sometimes wonder if there are any adults on this site.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#443

Post by drdeca »

trapnii wrote: post #383
phaistra wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rants about how stupid everyone else is. > His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams. I missed the part where he is wrong.

the part where "he" is wrong, is the part where he tells everyone that his reference software can be compared to a real terminal. You cannot compare shoes with towels, nor cats with a TV. The tiling renderer "he" wrote as part of the reference software to demo isn't that bad as a product (to some degree), but that piece of software is garbage, as it has zero use. And almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can…

Why is the word “he” in quotes? Are you implying that they’re trnsgnder or something? But you don’t put “his” in quotes, so that probably isn’t why?

It is confusing.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#444

Post by kayamon »

LigmaYC wrote: post #418
ripley12 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

No, this is just a temp account because I mainly lurk HN. Given your previous tone, I wouldn't suggest accusing others of being part of an "angry mob".

> I wouldn't suggest accusing others of being part of an "angry mob".

Why not? What are you going to do about it? Be angry more?

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#445

Post by chii »

indy wrote: post #73
DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

A good apology has three parts: 1. I'm sorry 2. It was my fault 3. How do I make it right?

They skipped straight to the 3rd step, without doing the first 2.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#446

Post by chii »

bena wrote: post #196
DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

In the future, when you think someone is being a fucking moron, never actually call them a fucking moron. Because if it turns out they weren't a fucking moron and you were wrong all along, you're going to look, well, like this. The way to navigate the conversation would have been something closer to this: "I thought it was already doing this, but I'll check again, maybe we misread the doc. Also there's X, Y, and Z to…

In short, be humble, and don't assume your own position is always correct, and leave room for doubt and criticism. Seek to find why someone else would consider your position wrong - it can't hurt because if you can find proof that your position is correct this way, it only strengthens your position, and if your position turns out to be wrong, you can learn and gain experience (while thanking the people who critisized you).

unfortunately, ego is what prevents this in a lot of people. Their self-worth is linked to being correct, and people pointing out that their foundational beliefs are wrong cannot be acknowledged.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#447

Post by LigmaYC »

kayamon wrote: post #444
LigmaYC wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is just a temp account because I mainly lurk HN. Given your previous tone, I wouldn't suggest accusing others of being part of an "angry mob".

> I wouldn't suggest accusing others of being part of an "angry mob". Why not? What are you going to do about it? Be angry more?

No, read the first part of the sentence.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#448

Post by physicsguy »

aulin wrote: post #192
curiousgal wrote: post #44

Idk, personally I hardly think of DHowett's comment footer as insulting. Going through the Github thread the OP does come off as standoff-ish. It's just a reminder that being right is not always enough.

Same here, maybe it's because I'm not a native speaker, but I didn't see anything offensive in the discussion. It wasn't even a particularly productive discussion worth crediting OP for.

It comes across as very passive aggressive to me (native British English speaker).

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#449

Post by dmitriid »

trapnii wrote: post #436
dmitriid wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from the author of the blogpost: "We actually took the same approach Casey suggested... A lot of terminals implement it that way." [1] I guess authors of a lot of terminals are trolling you. From the refterm README: "VT codes for setting colors and cursor positions, as well as strikethrough, underline, blink, reverse video, etc." [2] And, to begin with, Windows Terminal was horrendously slow even without VT c…

[flagged]

> I am open for being corrected

No. No you're not. Because you keep shifting goalposts and ignoring inconvenient truths.

First you claimed that "almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can be applied to a real terminal".

To which I linked and quoted Windows Terminal team: "We actually took the same approach Casey suggested. A lot of terminals implement it that way."

Then you shifted the goalpost to saying "We should distinguish here between renderer and VT terminal backend."

To which I replied: he implements VT parsing and rendering.

Is it a complete VT parsing and rendering pipeline? No. Does it invalidate his approach? No.

And to put this into additional perspective, Windows Terminal was abysmally slow with no VT parsing, and with no color output to begin with. It couldn't handle most of Unicode, wide characters and dozens of other things.

And so on. Now it's "sickness", "plain garbage" and other stuff. Tell me, are you perhaps on Windows Terminal team? Because that's a fine if exaggerated example of their behaviour just a year ago. Now they are like "yup, we're doing exactly the same things that Casey is doing".

But wait, don't tell me. I'm definitely not going to engage in this useless thread any longer.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#450

Post by dmitriid »

green_biri wrote: post #438
dmitriid wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori - You insisted this was a "doctoral research" (your words) and that he was "misguided" (Leonard's words) - When it turned out he was right, you posted a non-apology (you didn't even name the person you were apologizing to) - A year later Leonard who claimed it was so hard now writes a blog post that "solution is trivial" and was "suggested by a community member". Once again f…

> - You and lhecker insulted Casey Muratori And Casey didn't? Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well. If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility, I would feel insulted too.

> Please take into consideration that Casey's definition of the solution as "simple" can sound quite insulting as well.

It can sound insulting only to people who originally claimed that what Casey suggested requires "doctoral level research into performance". Only to then implement exactly what he suggested.

> If someone stated that something is "simple" with an overtone of "are you blind", instead of showing more humility

Please re-read the original GitHub issue from the start: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362

He is there trying to understand an issue, providing suggestions etc. And generally being baffled how a modern terminal on a modern machine can output text at something like 5 frames per second.

After that Windows Terminal team barges in with "what you’re doing is describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation" to... only do exactly that later.

And what Casey said was going to be simple is this: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomm...

Tell me how this is insulting to anyone except the people who now claim that "oh we'd been aware about this approach before Casey opened the issue"?

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