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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#441

Post by baq »

dleslie wrote: post #357
nathanaldensr wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is ridiculous. I'm an able-bodied white male but I'm also not neuro-normative, nor do I enjoy open office plans. What people do like open office plans? Hasn't this issue been settled yet?

Open office is cheaper than cubicles and allows more employees in one space. That's why it caught on with decision makers. Some people like it because they thrive on attention and being disruptive, and open offices are optimized for that behavior.

> allows more employees in one space

and that's perhaps only technically true... as soon as you start adding quiet spaces, collaboration spaces, conference rooms, etc. necessary for open office layouts to actually work, the plain 3-4 person office plans (which nobody had for years, i was lucky to have them replaced with open office only during the pandemic) are just plain more efficient. open offices, to the surprise of no one actually working in them, force people to the worst of both worlds: have to commute to work to IM with colleagues anyway to not disrupt the whole office. it's madness.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#442

Post by Grustaf »

dleslie wrote: post #399
EricE wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone understands or can engage in body language. Well you sure as hell aren't going to get better at it by throwing up your hands and declaring it just isn't for you. I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt. I'm very extroverted at work - because it's necessary. Yup, I pay a price - it's exhausting and I need time to…

... How are those who are physically incapable of engaging in normal body language, due to any number of permanent physical conditions, going to simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do it? They're not.

No they're not. But that is not a reason to make everyone incapable of using body language, by removing offices.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#443

Post by specialist »

lghh wrote: post #387
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

From the OC:

"They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce."

I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means.

Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no tortured nonsensical rationalizations necessary.

"If you're explaining, you're losing." -- Lee Atwater

Labor now has greater power. Wield it. Those who would take away your power don't bother to explain themselves. Why should Labor?

Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#444

Post by dleslie »

baq wrote: post #441
dleslie wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open office is cheaper than cubicles and allows more employees in one space. That's why it caught on with decision makers. Some people like it because they thrive on attention and being disruptive, and open offices are optimized for that behavior.

> allows more employees in one space and that's perhaps only technically true... as soon as you start adding quiet spaces, collaboration spaces, conference rooms, etc. necessary for open office layouts to actually work, the plain 3-4 person office plans (which nobody had for years, i was lucky to have them replaced with open office only during the pandemic) are just plain more efficient. open offices, to the surprise…

I think it's worth noting that those things are adaptations that occurred after open concept took over. It's sort of a situation where the industry went a direction and never thought to reconsider, backpedal, and take another path entirely. Instead, we kept modifying our response to our poor decision to try and improve it.

But in the era of WFH the cubicles and private offices make even less sense: if I spend most of my day isolated in a cubicle, then why can't I spend that time in my office at home?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#446

Post by listless »

tedivm wrote: post #439
spullara wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind. I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know…

Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#447

Post by dleslie »

Grustaf wrote: post #442
dleslie wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... How are those who are physically incapable of engaging in normal body language, due to any number of permanent physical conditions, going to simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do it? They're not.

No they're not. But that is not a reason to make everyone incapable of using body language, by removing offices.

Video calls convey body language. You don't need an office for that.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#448

Post by nottorp »

jakenberg wrote: post #376

Apple is in a very tough spot. A $5bn headquarters sits relatively vacant with decreasing likelihood that there will be a return on investment. They ironically dug themselves into a hole by preaching how it would revolutionize the workplace while most feel this way about WFH. The paradigm shift seems obvious, especially when you account for the unrelenting rise in commercial real estate prices since Covid. Perhaps Ap…

Read somewhere that their famous 5Bn headquarters is also fully open plan office, as opposed to their previous buildings.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#449

Post by engineeringwoke »

lolsal wrote: post #311
jasonlotito wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? No. Online whiteboards have benefits that in-person whiteboard sessions do not, obviously. > There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? No, obviously there is value in having lunches together with your colleagues, just as there are downsides. > There is no value in body…

> No. Online whiteboards have benefits that in-person whiteboard sessions do not, obviously. Is it obvious though? They're garbage for most of the teams I've worked with. They're tolerable to the rest. > No, obviously there is value in having lunches together with your colleagues, just as there are downsides. Ok, but I'm asserting some valuable things being lost by going fully remote only, it doesn't do either side o…

> Fair point! I don't know that I have ever, anywhere, read any informal text or technical document that could communicate the nuances of body language effectively and entirely though

If you aren't neurotypical, then read ribbonfarm. Conflict, double meanings, soft and hard power, etc. will be hard to understand without it. Most body language isn't that serious, but conflict is normal and you'll have a much easier time understanding why someone else starts conflict with you. It's long; first two parts are probably enough but it is generally fairly compelling.

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#450

Post by EricE »

lghh wrote: post #387
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

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