Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year • Hacker News Board

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#441

Post by tqi » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

jonshariat wrote: post #247

tqi wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That also assumes there is no response bias. The linked article doesn't seem to go too deep on methods but the source is a content marketing piece for Hospital IQ, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Also my first thought when I saw n was 200, lots of surveys make mistakes in sample selection or question writing but it seems with the responses here and my own observations being close to nursing, the main point checks out. Lots of burn out and leaving the profession.

Agree, I'm definitely not making any statements as to whether or not the burnout is real. I just think that a lot times the assumptions we make when we apply statistical concepts (like standard error) to real world data don't hold up.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by Buttons840 » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #172

CityOfThrowaway wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patient satisfaction surveys are the legible feedback mechanism showing that something is deeply broken, but not the source of the problem itself. It's clear from your comment that the source of the problem is the increasingly sharp divide between what the credentialed medical professionals believe and what lay people believe. The satisfaction survey is simply uncovering that fact. It would be vastly worse if patient…

Patients have always been entitled to make decisions about their bodies. You can decline procedures, and treatment, and you can get second, third, fourth, fifth opinions. Satisfaction surveys do nothing to increase that autonomy. The dystopian world you speak of is a straw man. The problems stems from people believing they are consumers of healthcare, on equal footing with the practitioner they are seeing. They're no…

> The problems stems from people believing they are consumers of healthcare, on equal footing with the practitioner they are seeing. They're not, objectively.

Objectively, the patient is the only one who has 500,000 hours of experience with the unique and very complicated system we call a body, and is objectively the only one who comprehends what they're feeling. They're also the one who experiences the consequences, they're the only ones with literal skin in the game. How much is all of this worth?

It's a difficult thing. The answer is some mix of giving the doctor and patient power.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by ejb999 » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #434

cupofpython wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% seems way too high to be people who are actively wanting to leave We are talking about the people who clean up the nastiest human waste that our bodies are capable of producing. I was already surprised that this number was ever less than 100% tbh

Well they knew that going in, so I'm not convinced that's a factor.

right, and while nurses do have to do some things I would consider gross, more often than not, it is the lower paid medical assistants and CNA's that get the real awful jobs that does not require a nursing degree - i.e. changing diapers in nursing home, bathing people etc - won't find too many nurses doing that in the nursing homes around me.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by throwawayboise » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #425

mikemac wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with all of this, and just to add one thing: liability. Look at the RaDonda Vaught case or the Michelle Heughins case; terrifying to be looking at jail time for a med error. Many nurses are watching these cases more closely and deciding that since staffing isn't getting any better and they won't be protected, it's not worth the risk.

I believe you can even be personally liable for HIPPA security violations as a user or dev of a healthcare system. That seems a bit scary. I agree that regulation persuades people not to do things out of fear of breaking the law. We see this in it's intentional form with regulation of other things such as abortion, guns, etc. Put so many laws in place that risk of accidentally breaking one and receiving an extensive…

> I believe you can even be personally liable for HIPPA security violations as a user or dev of a healthcare system.

Welcome to being an engineer, if that's what you want to call yourself. The engineer who approves a bridge design can be held liable if it collapses due to a design fault.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by archhn » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #17

While it's anecdote, every single peer in bedside medical care I know without exception has either left the field, or has immediate plans to as soon as student loan debt is repaid. The few older medical professionals in my family are simply sticking out the last few years until they can retire early. This was generally the case prior to pandemic due to how poor the work environment has become, but the pandemic seems…

See "The Managerial Revolution" by James Burnham.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by Clubber » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

lghh wrote: post #283

yhoneycomb wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that’s exactly how unfettered “free market” capitalism operates. The end game is big companies end up controlling everything, including the regulations in order to tip the scales in their favor.

There is no such thing as free market capitalism. This is why the parent comment said "capitalism" and not "free markets". I assume that's what you meant by putting "free market" in quotes, I'm just making an explicit clarification.

I would say the drug cartels are about as close to free market capitalism as we have today. They are largely unregulated because they can either buy off the regulators / government, or fight them with armies.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by JaimeThompson » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #219

mfer wrote: post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

> This one is big for product designers. You're right that there are definitely opportunities for improvement here. As a Product person that has worked in EMR/Healthcare IT systems, I can tell you the biggest challenge is most of the decisions are driven by legally-required compliance. In many cases, you literally cannot make it better because the brokenness is /by design/ to comply with the law. Nearly across the bo…

Doctors and hospitals control some of the more powerful lobbying groups in the United States making it a bit strange they haven't worked on those issues.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

lefstathiou wrote: post #251

lettergram wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one wants to hear the truth. There’s near-infinite demand for healthcare and a constrained (mostly artificially) supply. Insurance, people and government can’t solve the problem of the supply and demand by throwing money on it. You either expand supply or remove demand. Given removing demand is... not desirable. The only alternative to fix the issue is remove regulation and expand supply. That’s it. Insurance make…

I think there needs to be some new approach to how medical services are being paid for. My 70yo father fell off a ladder and drove himself to the hospital in Calhoun Georgia (2 hours north of Atlanta, a small town) with a bruised eye and a broken wrist. He got in late afternoon, left the next day, and the bill to insurance (which of course they won't pay) was $69,000... more than per capita income in the US. The syst…

> Yes, we need more supply (by deregulating the profession)

So it looks like software development? Are you comfortable for your life to be in the hands of a rando who just finished a 6-months bootcamp?

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Post by throwawayboise » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #433

hedora wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re facing some massive generational crises at this point, and it feels like the only solution is to wait for the current leadership to die off, and hope the gen x’ers fix it. The WWII generation fixed the ozone hole, but their kids didn’t lift a finger for global warming. Subsequent generations are scrambling to pick up the pieces for our kids, while crap like this, and our rapidly collapsing democracy keep sabota…

While I think SOME longevity in congress/the senate is a good thing (You get more done). I really wish we had something like an age cap. It's really crazy that the only way it seems like we can get these senators/congresspeople out of office is death from old age. The fact is, your mind DOES deteriorate when you get older. That's why so many phone scams are special built to target older people. A change I'd make to t…

Mandatory retirement is a thing in a lot of professions. Should be in government as well.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#450

Post by orwin » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #406

jmugan wrote: post #397

A lot of us are saying we need to increase the pay of nurses, but we also believe that medical care is too expensive. So, where is all that money going? There are a lot of flippant answers but they never seem to lead anywhere actionable.

I am not sure, and I'm not saying this is the WHOLE problem (in fact I am confident it is not), but... in 2017 (first hit I got googling) 7.9% of all healthcare expenditure in the USA ($275 billion) went to insurance overhead, vs 2.8% in Canada. But yeah, in general, this is a problem (healthcare in general, healthcare expenses, nurse job experience) where almost all other countries with similar wealth are doing so m…

In France, 18% to 22% of the money given to our public insurance is used for administrative stuff, which i thought was a lot. Then I learned that 31% of what my company pays for my private insurance is used for administrative purpose. So either private companies are way less efficient than public service, or i should immediately buy shares from Swisslife and others.

Guess what my first major investment was?