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Tax the Land

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441–450 of 613 posts

Re: Tax the Land

#441
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is normally a good thing. Because we need more people employed as opposed to one person with 2x income

>>>Because we need more people employed as opposed to one person with 2x income To me that just suggests we have a massive over-supply of labor. Whether labor is employed or not, it comes with a non-zero resource maintenance cost, which exacerbates things like climate risk, etc. Setting tax policies in such a way to maximize the number of meatbags assembling widgets strikes me as directing us towards an erroneous loc…

How are you going to cull all those extra months?

Re: Tax the Land

#442
post #242

In my mind, LVT only works properly when you've ripped out every other tax: income, sales, capital, you name it. Absolutely no more friction and warped incentives. Divide the government budget by the weighted land values and tax accordingly. But that could never work in our world. There would be too much temptation to add a small tax here for this other thing, and then it snowballs, and then we're back to where we st…

>Divide the government budget by the weighted land values and tax accordingly. That is pretty much how existing property taxes work.

What you're saying is true, and note that land value tax is different than existing property tax in what exactly it taxes.

Re: Tax the Land

#443
post #338
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that some things which are necessary for a healthy society are, are not, and cannot be made to be, profitable by themselves. Nightclubs was my guess as to what one of those things could be, parks was another. Other examples which are usually brought up are public transit and the postal service. These might never earn enough income to afford the space they take up in a city center, but it is still vital that…

> public transit and the postal service Hang on, what does loss-making public infrastructure paid for by taxes have to do with the taxation of the land it sits on? If the government already pays for railway stations and parks and post offices, why would it be a problem for the government to tax itself more? I agree that there are things which have positive externalities that are not profitable in themselves. Those th…

> I'd rather give most of the surplus value to governments instead.

Sure. But are you arguing that all use of current buildings are already at their theoretical maximum profit limit, and therefore no real estate property tax could incentivize landlords to convert a building from a museum to, say, lofts? If so, I am doubtful, but I have no evidence to present against your position.

Re: Tax the Land

#444
post #164

The idea of land-value tax strongly reminds me of the often cited, and much maligned, so-called fiduciary duty to shareholders which CEOs and/or board members reportedly have. This duty creates, it is said, an incentive towards naked short-term greed, which is often described as a bad thing. Now, even though this duty is also usually derided as fictional, the argument, if this duty did exist, would be reasonable. But…

Note: My terminology was wrong: What I argued against, and called “land-value tax”, is more properly called “real estate property tax”. As the article did not advocate for this, my argument is irrelevant to the article, or possibly in agreement with it.

Re: Tax the Land

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … and the people who can't even afford to move there in the first place. There’s no inalienable right to live in a popular place you cannot afford. Can you articulate an ethical argument for why it’s a problem that not everyone can afford to move to the most desirable cities?

There's no inalienable right to not be cripplingly impoverished. But any ethical countries would try to ameliorate that condition. Is it ethical for a select few to grow enormously wealthy by driving up the cost of living for the many by deliberately causing a shortage of a basic need? People need jobs to live. They also need a roof over their heads. The jobs are becoming increasingly concentrated in a few metro area…

Yeah this is exactly right. In my hometown, we have a beautiful view, but people are always pushing for taller more dense housing, because they say it’s unaffordable. However if they win they will destroy what makes this place great in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep a town smaller and more simple. If the residents were there first and exerted their way into the community they have that right.

I don’t really understand any other argument. There are lots of up and coming cities nowadays, you are free to live there, you are also free to be creative and make more money.

Re: Tax the Land

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP's specific point was based on a misunderstanding: that being unable to pay the land value tax would mean they would have to move to a different city because the cost of living in their original city would be too high. This might be a reasonable concern during a transition to a land value tax system, but once the land value tax has been in place long enough to see more efficient use of land actually happening,…

> because the cost of living in their original city would be too high No! That's not what OP said. He talked about the problem of _a change_ in the height of the tax on the same land over time and this making it become too expensive. That's not the same thing, because while the land tax would not cause such a problem (as you correctly said) but rather improve the situation due to more efficient use, the problem of _c…

The absence of something like a land value tax, and/or the current zoning/tax regime, can cause distortions in the market when things change, also.

San Fransisco is a good example, where new housing is not being built to satisfy demand, causing property values to increase, and property taxes are prevented from increasing.

Children can't afford to live in the neighborhood where they grew up because housing costs too much, older people can't downsize because they'll loose their tax breaks, teachers and police officers can't afford to live in the neighborhoods they service, the character of the neighborhood changes as it gentrifies as only the rich can afford to move there, increasing income inequality as the rentier class grows richer through their subsidized investments, etc.

Re: Tax the Land

#447
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand where the 1.6 million came from. If you're talking about interest on the loan, the premise was that the rent covers the mortgage payment (interest and capital) plus maintenance plus returns some net cash. In that case, when the net cash has returned enough to cover the downpayment, you'd be richer by the entire value of the house even without appreciation.

You are correct. Renters cover the mortgage and you are neutral at 35 years. Not in bebt

So, for your 200k downpayment, you now have 200k * 1.047^35 = 1MM as the total house value that you own even without house appreciation, so almost a 5% rate of return.

Re: Tax the Land

#448
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) Zoning laws have to change as well to actually allow development of the land being taxed toward more productive ends. This is addressed to some extent, with the argument that zoning reforms are more practical because existing property owners are incentivized to support rather than fight zoning updates that allow more development, so they can fully maximize the ratio of their revenue against the tax. (“It turns N…

> existing property owners are incentivized to support rather than fight zoning updates that allow more development Regular people who own some land are not going to have the capital or skillset to tear down their house and build a highrise on the plot of land. So what a LVT does, is to force individual landowners to sell land off to giant developer corporations who do have the resources to make it happen. Consolidat…

> Consolidation of all ownership onto a few large players is not a good thing for society.

For the past few decades a large percentage of new housing has been built by large developers who buy cheap land just outside of town, clear cut it, then build a bunch of cheaply made identical houses in complexes with nothing else allowed, leaving behind an HOA to enforce conformity. The laws encourage these large developers, and sprawl. It's too much overhead for an individual or a small developer to build in an established neighborhood, especially if they are not building expensive housing.

Even lately hedgefunds and other large investors have been buying up housing at a greater rate, because they know the supply has been restricted by law. They'll squeeze everyone they can for money and lobby to keep their gravy train going.

Re: Tax the Land

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude here is precisely why local zoning is ineffective. The people who are negatively impacted by anti-development policies are the ones that don't get the privilege of living in economically powerful population centers in the first place. Sure, the home-owners might grumble about an apartment blocking their view, more crowded restaurants, or "neighborhood character as a city grows. The people who are negati…

> … and the people who can't even afford to move there in the first place. There’s no inalienable right to live in a popular place you cannot afford. Can you articulate an ethical argument for why it’s a problem that not everyone can afford to move to the most desirable cities?

From a strictly ethics point of view, government in the general sense exists for its people and their well-being. I think this should be a fairly uncontroversial starting point.

Now the question is whether one can show that the people are in a very general sense better off if a desirable city is affordable accessible compared to the alternative. I say “very general sense” because I want to avoid any argument that involves the minutiae of utilitarianism; it should be overwhelmingly in favor regardless of your exact ethical framework.

With that in mind, my argument would be that [cities should be affordable] is the obvious ethical choice if and only if the city in question is designed / planned in a pro-social manner. Where pro-social is defined such that the addition of new people is positive.

This should sound fairly tautological so let me give a few examples:

Pro-social design:

shops that rely on foot traffic are pro-social because adding more people (housing etc) to the immediate vicinity increases foot traffic

Mass transportation is pro-social because as more people are added to a particular neighborhood, this justifies expansion of train lines, bus routes, etc

Anti-social design:

Shops that rely on car traffic are usually anti-social because (a) adding people to other neighborhoods can still increase traffic to the shop, (b) removing parking space to add housing is a net negative to the shop (as parking capacity dictates shopping throughout)

Road systems are anti-social because adding more people to the system increases traffic at a nonlinear rate (ie: a road system at capacity decreases in throughput as more cars are added)

In other words, cities designed like cities benefit from more people, and thus everyone benefits from lower housing prices.

The kicker is, the United States doesn’t have a single city designed as a city. We have dense pro-social urban cores surrounded by anti-social suburbs and exurbs.

In contrast to a place like Tokyo where literally every resident has a bus or train (or combination thereof) to get downtown, America has split between two designs, and progressing along one design hurts anyone living in the other.

A noteworthy corollary is that if you live in a suburb or exurb (and are a homeowner protected from rent increases), property values going up to the moon are almost always positive, because your environment is anti-social in the first place. While in the city core it’s more complicated, because your property value going up raises your net worth but harms the pro-social environment around you.

Re: Tax the Land

#450
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … and the people who can't even afford to move there in the first place. There’s no inalienable right to live in a popular place you cannot afford. Can you articulate an ethical argument for why it’s a problem that not everyone can afford to move to the most desirable cities?

> There’s no inalienable right to live in a popular place you cannot afford. I agree, that's why single family households should have a higher property tax and high density a lower one. Currently single family households are subsidized.[1] [1]: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/4/16/when-apartment...

But property taxes are local. Raising them only supplies more revenue to the local area. For the US, also, one needs to take into account many states have limits on property tax rates and revenue raises in general, such as millage rates have to be fully balanced with spending, which in turn, has limits. Excess rate increases will simply make those areas less valuable, which will push people to even lower taxed areas, which, at least in the US, are even more rural areas, thereby increasing the concern for climate change and a reduction in population density.
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