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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#441

Post by s1artibartfast »

holonomically wrote: post #437
s1artibartfast wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then make your case instead of pretending to not understand the statement. What is your solution to enable high quality curriculum and ensuring uniform success?

I didn't say anything about "uniform success".

>What's the fallacy in teaching everyone the same things? That seems like a good way to equalize life outcomes and give everyone the required skills for succeeding in contemporary society.

What did you mean by equalize life outcomes then?

again, what is your position and proposal?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#442

Post by mixmastamyk »

derekjdanserl wrote: post #428
hintymad wrote: post #411

As I repeated said, doing away "advanced maths" will make you left people feel better and will hurt a lot of socially-economically challenged families. Those who can afford RSM or AOPS will learn algebra, if they can, as young as 3rd or 4th grade, while the kids' parents don't need to lift a finger. Those who solely rely on the public school to push their kids? They will be screwed. I have all the means to support my…

These people are not politically “left” in any way, shape, or form. They are just decadent. The political left is responsible for my father’s retirement pension, his father’s freedom to spend his evenings to complete a correspondence electrician’s certification while working the mines, the 40 hour work week more broadly, fire exits in burning factory buildings, etc. so I think we should be careful who we are calling…

They have just gone too far with ideology, due to being in an echo chamber of like minds. History in a nutshell.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#443

Post by mlyle »

gpm wrote: post #354
Aerroon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the basics of algebra are already taught in first grade (or whenever you learn arithmetic). Kids at that age won't have questions such as x + 3 = 7 Instead, they will get questions such as __ + 3 = 7 They might not formally learn it, but they'll learn the patterns that they will eventually apply in algebra.

And if we were any good at teaching math we would just naturally go with it from there, "algebra" wouldn't even be a subject, it would just be something you do by default as teachers first replaced _ with x (hopefully before you even got too used to _), and then started making the equations gradually more complex. "Solving linear equations with multiple variables", "solving quadratic equations", "solving polynomials"…

Yah. I think we go about things all wrong.

Even "new math" is too rote/heavy on memorization of process. And not enough patterns/puzzles/games/etc.

We need to find a way that the math content can be interesting for 80% of the room, and provide competition where there's multiple axes of success and multiple ways to stand out. Then you get everyone in the room really trying.

Instead, what happens is this: we start with curriculum that is very algorithm-heavy, taught by elementary teachers who generally do not love math. Half of the kids struggle with the rote-heavy workload and fall behind, and it becomes a frantic effort to try and drill steps into kids' heads who just hate it more and more. For a lot of the class, this is very painful and zero-sum, and it's only fear of what the teacher will say to parents that generates any effort.

[Note, I do think there is a point around 3rd grade developmentally where it makes sense to drill some arithmetic processes, and around 8th-9th grade to drill some algebraic process... but algebraic ideas can come in well before that time and hopefully be taught in a way that makes them interesting].

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#444

Post by holonomically »

candybar wrote: post #440
holonomically wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Setting up equations with unknown variables and solving them is not algebra?

The page you linked to doesn't have a single problem that requires "setting up equations with unknown variables and solving them." And as I mentioned, even in the US, "Algebra 1" isn't when Algebra in the sense of equations and variables is first introduced. Algebraic concepts are explicitly introduced around 5th grade ( https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-fifth-grade-math/imp-alg... ), but problems that could easily…

> Oleg owes his friend, Ivan, 100 rubles. Oleg has only 50 rubles. How many more rubles (x) does Oleg have to get to repay Ivan?

50 + x = 100 ↔ x = 100 - 50 = 50. I definitely linked to something that has word problems that can be converted to algebraic equations in 1 unknown.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#445

Post by rxhernandez »

Nadya wrote: post #388
rxhernandez wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That means nothing. I have met plenty of people that did calculus in high school and got pushed back into remedial classes in college. Exposure to a concept does not mean proficiency in it.

I'd have taken exposure over nothing. I had to teach myself - as an adult - calculus, linear algebra, probability (outside of the ever-so-brief introduction in school) and trigonometry. I personally don't think I did a very good job as my own teacher either. 3Blue1Brown was a lifesaver and every now and again I try to brush up on the topics - not for my benefit at all but for my child's benefit in the future. I think…

> Half of what I learned isn't even true anymore or were partial truths/mostly lies

This is true of most levels of education. What you learn in elementary turns out to be bullshit because of what you learn in high school which turns out to be bullshit because of what you learn in undergrad which turns out to be bullshit because of graduate school which turns out to be bullshit because of the work of an army of scientists.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#446

Post by holonomically »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #441
holonomically wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say anything about "uniform success".

>What's the fallacy in teaching everyone the same things? That seems like a good way to equalize life outcomes and give everyone the required skills for succeeding in contemporary society. What did you mean by equalize life outcomes then? again, what is your position and proposal?

My position is that kids should be taught math at an earlier age and schools should be properly staffed and funded to ensure positive learning outcomes for all students regardless of their socio-economic background because that will lead to more equal life outcomes.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#447

Post by candybar »

holonomically wrote: post #444
candybar wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The page you linked to doesn't have a single problem that requires "setting up equations with unknown variables and solving them." And as I mentioned, even in the US, "Algebra 1" isn't when Algebra in the sense of equations and variables is first introduced. Algebraic concepts are explicitly introduced around 5th grade ( https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-fifth-grade-math/imp-alg... ), but problems that could easily…

> Oleg owes his friend, Ivan, 100 rubles. Oleg has only 50 rubles. How many more rubles (x) does Oleg have to get to repay Ivan? 50 + x = 100 ↔ x = 100 - 50 = 50. I definitely linked to something that has word problems that can be converted to algebraic equations in 1 unknown.

This isn't how that problem was meant to be solved - it's meant to be a straightforward subtraction problem. For instance, this is a US 2nd grade subtraction word problem from Khan Academy:

Sparky the dragon was born with 28 spikes. He grew several more spikes as he got older. Now Sparky has 80 spikes. How many new spikes did Sparky grow?

Sure, this could be expressed as an algebra problem, 28 + X = 80, but the intention here is quite clearly for the student to see it as a subtraction problem.

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-2nd-grade-math/cc-2nd-ad...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#448

Post by chii »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #414
simion314 wrote: post #117

I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…

"the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious" It's not obvious to the authors of the California Math Framework, who believe that: - we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable - every child should be taught grade-level material (no matter how far behind, or far ahead, they may be) - teachers are capable of successfully…

> classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable

It's just "strange" that this is only done for academics, but never for athletics.

The fact that academic results can be thought of in "equitable" terms, but not athletic results (aka, you must be able to run 100m in X seconds), points to some systemic, cultural bias in thinking that everyone is just as smart, and that genetics don't play a role in intelligence.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#449

Post by holonomically »

candybar wrote: post #447
holonomically wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oleg owes his friend, Ivan, 100 rubles. Oleg has only 50 rubles. How many more rubles (x) does Oleg have to get to repay Ivan? 50 + x = 100 ↔ x = 100 - 50 = 50. I definitely linked to something that has word problems that can be converted to algebraic equations in 1 unknown.

This isn't how that problem was meant to be solved - it's meant to be a straightforward subtraction problem. For instance, this is a US 2nd grade subtraction word problem from Khan Academy: Sparky the dragon was born with 28 spikes. He grew several more spikes as he got older. Now Sparky has 80 spikes. How many new spikes did Sparky grow? Sure, this could be expressed as an algebra problem, 28 + X = 80, but the inten…

Then I don't really understand what you're arguing about.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#450

Post by legerdemain »

abeppu wrote: post #435
legerdemain wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me an American university that doesn't spend the first two years of a STEM major's life on the three-semester calculus sequence, linear algebra, and ordinary differential equations, and I will then come up with a secondary school math curriculum targeting admission to such a program.

Actually, the "S" is pretty broad and I'm guessing there are multiple majors at reputable universities that don't require all that.

Sure, if your S is sociology, your math requirements will be 0-2 units of calculus and a statistical methods course taught in the department. The secondary school preparation for such a program is called "stop taking math in 11th grade."
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