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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match up with my experience as an interviewer at several FAANGs. HR typically wants their diversity numbers up badly so if you're gay, a woman, and/or black they are already incredibly inclined to hire you, as long as you pass the interviews. It's not a walk in the park, but you have this going for you and it's a big advantage imo.

> as long as you pass the interviews. Aren't these are known to be extremely difficult interviews compared to most tech interviews? What percentage of candidates who apply get hired? I would imagine the numbers are quite low?

My opinion is that generalist interviews are difficult but not 'extremely'. For example, here is a problem I came up with at one company:

Given a list of chapters in a video course, and a list of user bookmarks, write a function that groups the bookmarks by chapter. Chapters and bookmarks are defined as millisecond offsets from 0 (the start of the video file).

I'd specify the data structures for junior devs and let the more senior people work those out.

Your average developer that gets hired can solve and unit test the solution in less than 35 minutes. Those who don't might be having an off day, or I didn't do a good job at explaining the problem and details, or they didn't ask the right questions or who knows. The point is, a thousand things can go wrong, but the problem itself isn't that difficult. A few loops and a hashmap gets you an acceptable solution.

This and the other problems in the interview question databases at FAANGs are typical of what's in the Cracking the Coding Interview book. Whether someone's ability to solve these types of problems quickly is indicative of their skill level is a hot topic of debate, but if one wants to join these companies, then hacking the process by learning to solve algorithm and data structure problems is acceptable and not a particularly complex process. It's high overhead for the candidate, but at the very least it proves that they can learn, and learning the custom tools and code quickly is about half the skillet required to be successful at a FAANG.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. I guess it means what you mean by “succeed”. Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. If huge chunks of future generations skip co…

College degrees are either incredibly overpriced, or incredibly good value for money, depending on how you analyse them. If you look at some CS graduate making $200,000 a year and assume they'd have made $50,000 without the degree, college looks like an incredibly good investment. On the other hand, if you look at someone paying $1000 per credit hour for online video lectures? I've seen online video at 1% that price…

>If you look at some CS graduate making $200,000 a year and assume they'd have made $50,000 without the degree

This is the problem with assessing how valuable college is: you don't know how well off the person would've been if they had chosen not to go to college. You can't just compare all the people who went to college with all the people who didn't. You end up with a selection bias. You need to compare people who went to college with people who could've gone to college, but didn't.

Also, there might be (is) a difference between what's good for the individual and what's good for society.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#443
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only been the last +- 5 years that this became the dominant thinking at colleges.

Based on which metric? Does the same thinking carryover to the construction industry which is 97% male?

It coincides with the election of Donald Trump. This ideology already had a foothold in some departments and Trump was the accelerant that made it spread everywhere. Longread if you want a more detailed explanation: https://newdiscourses.com/2021/04/rise-woke-cultural-revolut...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#444
post #413

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God forbid you have your own place like the last three generations before you! No, just rent and share like a college student your whole life. That makes sense.

Everyone has to make trade offs. You want to live in the cultural capital of the world or place where the average income is over six figures, but everyone else does as well. There's limited space in these cities, so you need to bid top dollar if you want to keep a place for yourself.

Sorry man, I just don't buy it. Expensive housing is a solveable problem. Six figures isn't that much when you're still spending half your paycheck on rent.

As for the cultural capital of the world? New York used to have a thriving art scene when it was cheap to live in. Now it just has an expensive art scene.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#445
post #146
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that, i've hear Professor Emeritus Mallard talk about his youth in the genetical field and the first use of computers to assist geneticists, he told me that he basically never saw men doing computer work, and that changed in the 80s, along with the culture.

The story i've heard is that the olden days, operating a computer was seen as clerical work, just like being a secretary, so ideally suited to women. Then we got 8-bit microcomputers in every home, and operating a computer became a technical hobby, so ideally suited to boys. The generation of boys growing up playing with computers, and girls not playing with computers, swamped any existing biases in the industry. I w…

> The story i've heard is that the olden days, operating a computer was seen as clerical work, just like being a secretary, so ideally suited to women.

The fact is that in the old days, there really was plenty of clerical work around computers that just disappeared. Like rewritting data to punched cards and swapping wheels with punched tapes. My grandmother worked in 'data-processing facility' in a communist country, the facility employed many women, but they were (from whay i heard) essentially clerical positions without much CS/EE knowledge.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#446

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

> A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. This is very perspective dependent. I’m a black college student now and every conversation with friends back home includes some mention of dropping out because it’s not for us as well. When you see people with equivalent resumes already coasting by in the job market because they could get their last names and LinkedIn photos past…

I can't speak for your personal experience, but at least on paper, companies are begging for more diverse hires, even blatantly admitting to breaking the Civil Rights act to do so.

https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/132267679726609094-s...

>students who are a member of a group that is historically underrepresented in the technology industry will receive priority in the selection process. This group includes women, ethnic minorities and students with disabilities.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad for us as a society how?

I imagine their point is people forgoing a post secondary education.

The conflation of college with education was natural and understandable until the last 10-15 years, but that appears to be changing.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#448

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

I would like to bring up a point often missed with blue collar housing work (plumber, electrician, dry wall, etc). It is EASY to start your own thing. Once you are licensed and bonded you can quickly buy your own truck, hire an apprentice, setup yelp, setup an online receptionist and be overbooked. Right now plumbers are hard to get and electricians are months out. The plumbers I work with cannot keep up with the wor…

> It is EASY to start your own thing.

Not withstanding restrictive licensing systems that require you to put in X years working crap jobs for crap pay under someone who already has the license to ensure that you've "paid enough dues" you're not gonna go around undercutting everyone once you get your license.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#449
> “I’m sort of waiting for a light to come on so I figure out what to do next,” he said.

Interesting. Maybe guys who are not super-interested scientifically in a subject realize that it becomes a waste of time. Even their academically inclined peers will struggle since there arent nearly enough academic prospects for the number of Phd graduates. Then also these men grew up watching youtube stars etc. making it big without formal education.

Maybe these men should be encouraged to get their education in europe. Credentialism of Ivy Leagues is becoming increasingly irrelevant, but the academic environment is still stimulating and not hostile to either men or women.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Being white is definitely a leg up. Well, at least for me, a white guy, no college degree. Life is much easier. I don't think there is any support missing for us, that actually sounds hilarious. We need to work on lifting others up.

Can you hear yourself though? Can you put yourself in the shoes of a young white man? They are recipients of this message on a regular basis. When many of them end up having a difficult time despite being told how easy they have it, and how if they received help that would just be resources being taken away from less privileged people, it's easy for them to think something's wrong with themselves, to feel unwanted, d…

I was young once, and I am white. Yea sure, I understand it. And this is no way new, I had plenty of other white people feeling sorry for me because, "the country is being taken from the white man". That is ooooold, old, old. Fear based racism been around.

But to your weak sauce point, some folks are just going to have a hard go at life, but is it easier being white through life, no matter what? Yea, for sure. No one says it's an easy life, but it is easier being light skinned.

> unwanted, depressed

I think there used to be some organizations that helped with that. Specifically white men. You know, the kind that would give them a purpose, make them feel wanted. You got a hood and everything.

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