Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#441

Post by Bayart » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #336

rbanffy wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles. These are not masses of sheep being led around by brilliant propaganda, they're often people who don't think they have anything to lose by voting for the extreme nationalist over the status quo.

>The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles.

That's quite literally Nazi propaganda, although the narrative was born in the US with Keynes as Americans were oddly keen on washing the Germans of their sins, shifting the blame everywhere else and go back to business as usual.

The Treaty of Versailles was nothing particularly odious, Germany could have coped with it fine if it stuck to the terms. It didn't, it broke its economy on purpose to avoid honoring the treaty.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#442

Post by Bayart » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #184

pjc50 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something Yes, but is the thing they're upset about and the thing they're directing their anger towards actually linked? It's often hugely successful in politics to say "all your problems are the fault of this external bad actor" rather than " we have a problem and it's going to take a lot of hard work to fix it". It's very easy to bl…

> en masse in Eastern Europe Is Germany in Eastern Europe now?

A chunk of it certainly was, before the Germans got the boot. And the Nazi party was popular with a lot of factions in Eastern Europe, including in Hungary.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#443

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #424

bogomipz wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it was not. The Civil War was about states wanting to abolish federal laws they didn't support such as those that impinged upon the right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wanted to(see Western Expansion.) How could that be considered anything but "misbehavior"? Secession was simply the byproduct of this.

Oh, sure, but afterwards, the federal government wasn't able to impose its will particularly effectively. It's really hard to see reconstruction as anything but a failure.

I don't disagree however my posts were in context to the OP's assertion of "what would US of A do with a rogue Texas? nothing." And clearly the US did something. Also as disappointing as Reconstruction was it was in fact responsible for creation of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the U.S. Constitution aka the "the Reconstruction Amendments."[1] The important of which can not be overstated. Surely those should be factored in to any judgement of "failure", no?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Amendments

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#444

Post by mariusor » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #158

dstick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read in the newspaper today that the EU issued an ultimatum to Poland: get rid of the unlawful special court that deems itself above the EU law, or face repercussions. Finally they're growing some teeth. https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/europea... However, after Googling for an online source, I came across this article about another ultimatum for justice reform in 2017, and things only got worse…

And how does the EU justify it's legal supremacy? Where do they get that right? By treaty? Or perhaps the European Court of Justice simply 'ruled' that it's laws were 'supreme' in a bizarre act of defining it's own jurisdiction outside of treaty agreements? Europeans never agreed to give the ECJ supremacy. The ECJ just 'took' that power. It's a baffling bit of legal history [1][2] and it demonstrates just how powerfu…

In your post you seem to imply that European Law has precedence over national laws in all cases. As your first link details a couple paragraphs down, it's not so, it only covers those where nations submit to EU sovereignty explicitly:

> It should be noted that the primacy of EU law only applies where EU countries have ceded sovereignty to the EU — fields such as the single market, environment, transport, etc. However, it does not apply in areas such as social policy and taxation.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#445

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

jq-r wrote: post #416

ceilingcorner wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but this is a caricature. These countries were dying to join the West 30 years ago. Orban himself was one of the most prominent pro-West figures in the 90s. The only reason these countries are now “hostile” is because the EU and the West have changed.

So what's your point then? Of course stuff changes in 20 or 30 years. Everyone wanted to join the EU. They've joined, and for the last 20 years the elites are reaping the benefits. And that doesn't change the fact that there is a very strong anti EU sentiment among the Eastern European population. Did the EU screw them? They did not. Who did? Those same politicians now blaming EU for 30 years of their own corruption,…

Because these countries joined an organization with X agenda which now has Y agenda. This change (and demonization of anyone against it) is what gives politicians like Orban ammo.

If the EU were more decentralized, none of these political parties would exist.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#446

Post by nradov » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

laurent92 wrote: post #343

lloydjones wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc. And through pure boredom/decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into 'caring' about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc. These…

The average life in UK is to be a drunkard with bad teeth. Don’t take it bad, I love such friends and you may face difficulties with life, but while some find it poetic and party-prone, what does it tell about the country’s care of its citizen? Which other nation has a higher quantity of middle classes who drink themselves to near-death experience every second evening? What does it mean when the middleclass experienc…

You're exaggerating. The UK isn't even in the top 10 for alcohol consumption.

https://www.alcohol.org/guides/global-drinking-demographics/

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#447

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #431

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

On the contrary I think people would be happier in the US if it did split into multiple nations.

Would people be happier if they never faced any loss or conflict? I think the answer to that question is clearly no. Forget about the deeper question of what is real "happiness" and is that a meaningful goal in life...

We are resilient and these current conflicts are merely the by product of growth, learning, and building a stronger community and culture.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#448

Post by Regic » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #296

pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the media, academia This is precisely where I claim you've gone wrong. > NGOs NGOs are not democratic institutions per se. NGOs can be incredibly detrimental to societies, whether intentionally or through incompetence, and can be used by billionaires to social engineer societies as they see fit. > the media The media are not democrati…

I call this argument "totalitarian democracy argument". Yes, NGOs and media are not democratic, nor family, corporations, etc... Not everything is and it is fairly obvious that if everything was controlled through the goverment (so in some sense, democratic) it would lead to one party rule almost immediately, which unfortunately seem to be the point in this particular case.

It is also very ironic that in Hungary these independent (i.e. from state) institutions are replaced with ones who's mandate last longer than 2 terms of election - fairly obvious that public control is not the goal, but the exact opposite.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#449

Post by kian » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #362

rbanffy wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

> we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements (1) If you believe that hate-based disinformation campaigns routinely unseat good people ... I might suggest that normalising ruthless deplatforming of "fringe elements" is a strategic blunder? There is a stereotype of ye goode olde Nazi/Communist regimes. It involves tropes of ruthlessness and deplatforming of frin…

It seems a shame to downvote someone who is so genuinely trying to help in this situation. The moment the populace falls for 'far right' rhetoric, it becomes, by definition, centric rhetoric, in the same way that what was once 'left' rhetoric is now being called right-wing because the center has moved so far left. De-platforming and de-humanizing are the playbook by which every totalitarian government, no matter its political colors, has established itself. Be wary listening to anyone who suggests these as a genuine solution, no matter what they wave in solidarity.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#450

Post by Turms » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #32

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

Sorry, but that is totally factually incorrect. I am a Hungarian citizen and there are many well known and worrisome circumstances about Fidesz's electoral victories:

- The election system has been changed in a way that overcompensates the winner. Fidesz is supported by about 50% of the voting population, yet it has a 2/3-s supermajority which enables them to pass any law they wish without any resistance.

- Fidesz has built up a MASSIVE database of the voting population over the years, basically they can tell the voting preferences for each home address. There is video evidence of this, I am not talking out of my ass.

- Based on this database large scale gerrymandering took place in the past years.

- The governing body overseeing the elections is run by long standing Fidesz cadres. Many polling districts especially in rural areas only had Fidesz-affiliated polling-clerks during the last election.

- Thousands if not tens of thousands of Ukrainian citizens (many of whom have Hungarian ancestry, but many do not) have been registered in the Eastern part of the country with voting rights. They are eligible for pensions multiple times the amount they would receive from the Ukrainian government because of an old agreement made bw the Soviet Union and Hungary. In exchange they are voting for Fidesz. Again, this may sound like bullshit, but it is a documented fact.

- Small cities are told that they won't get any EU funding from the government if they elect a non-Fidesz mayor.

- There is a massive amount of very poor people dependent on government distributed "public work" in the countryside. It's basically modern day servitude. These people are also often threatened that if they vote the "wrong way" they will not get work.

- Most of the relevant news outlets (TV, Radio, Newspapers, online media) are owned by Fidesz-frienly businesspeople and they are in 24-7 propaganda mode. I am talking about 1950-s style Stalinist propaganda, not some kind of "pro-government bias". There have been by now basically one TV station and a handful of small websites left that are not controlled by Fidesz.

- And add to that that any opposition leader, any journalist critical towards Fidesz or any businessman who is not part of their circles can be monitored by these spy softwares and then you will understand what the term "hybrid regime" stands for.

Yes there are elections every four years, but they are just for show.