What it's like to be cancelled • Hacker News Board

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#441

Post by karaterobot » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

laurent123456 wrote: post #100

It seems it's better to stay away entirely from certain sensitive topics. No matter your intentions, no matter what you actually think, it just takes a bit of misunderstanding or bad faith and the whole thing explode.

Before social media, it was normally considered impolite to discuss religion, politics, or other sensitive topics in the presence of people you don't know well. I think this is probably good advice on social media, though people forget it.

I don't think it's self-censorship so much as a thing humans do to maintain the fragile network of relationships that holds society together. There are all kinds of things we want to do but refrain from doing in order to be polite: is not picking your nose in public self-censorship?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#442

Post by gnopgnip » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #143

What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.” None of which is illegal. It's not even a matter for civil litigation. He was not accused of doing this as a boss in an organization. Or in a workplace context. There were apparently no criminal charges. No EEOC complaints filed.[1] No a…

>It's grounds for being, say, thrown out of a nightclub. But not fired.

In the US this broadly isn't true, employers can fire someone even if they haven't done anything illegal

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#443

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

defaultname wrote: post #418

koheripbal wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public apologies are the new porn and bullying people into providing them is a real addiction for some. These depressed people use "consequences" as a brief hit of superiority, allowing them to escape the reality of their own failed lives. ...and as quickly as it picks them up, it is gone again, and they then need to search for that next dose of "justice". Complexity, self-reflection, nuance, are all distractions fro…

This is either a weird rhetorical device you're using to discount opposing viewpoints (they're all just trying to "escape the reality of their own failed lives"..."they are worthless"), or some sort of Jungian projection. Sexual harassment is an enormous problem in every industry. People who just want to do good work and be a part and contribute become targets for predators who objectify, diminish and harass. Cultura…

> This is either a weird rhetorical device you're using to discount opposing viewpoints (they're all just trying to "escape the reality of their own failed lives"..."they are worthless"), or some sort of Jungian projection.

This is the long winded version of "no you".

> Sexual harassment is an enormous problem in every industry. People who just want to do good work and be a part and contribute become targets for predators who objectify, diminish and harass. Culturally it became not okay and people realized they were heard and that these people could have consequences.

You think OP is guilty here, with no basis.

> A lot of people get riled up about such cases because they have faced similar situations themselves [see also how instances of racism/bigotry can become viral -- it taps into a latent anger]. It becomes cathartic and representative. A movement.

It's cathartic - exactly. It is for THEM. No one expressing their outrage truly cares about the victims - it is just porn.

> And the creeps of the world surely must have taken notice by now. The imagined Lothorios can stick to actual social events because it's pretty established that it's not a good idea at work, or anything remotely work related (including trade shows and conferences).

You think OP is guilty here, with no basis.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#444

Post by avs733 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #434

avs733 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is typical of people self-labeling as, and seeking pity for, being 'cancelled' in my experience... What happened is quickly glossed over in vague terms with a half hearted apology and treated as a mere unimportant sideshow to the real problem: I faced consequences . Ignoring the pushback or saying 'well I could have provided more detail about what I learned as a person' isn't actually explaining what you did wro…

Do you believe every man is a liar? Can a man change their spots? Is it acceptable to attack someone in the court of Twitter, victimise them, hurt them, and hurt their friends and family? Should society try to help everyone learn to be better, or should society righteously punish those who trangress the invisible boundaries of decency? His narrative is certainly believable, although I am in no position to judge your…

> Do you believe every man is a liar?

No, I believe we are all our own unreliable narrator

> Can a man change their spots?

Absolutely

> Is it acceptable to attack someone in the court of Twitter, victimise them, hurt them, and hurt their friends and family?

begging the question. I am merely commenting on the credibility of accepting an argument about victimization from someone who demands that we bifurcate that from how they have victimized others. There is one reality and yet we all have our own. You aren't entitled to demand your reality be adopted as the only one.

I'm a white guy too, I've never felt the need to opt out of discourse out of fear of being canceled. Cancel culture is designed to silence discourse...but not in the way you think. The term was created out of whole cloth and is designed to silence critique. It is a label applied to exempt behavior from critique. Discourse requires critique, cancel culture is designed to be a singular label to ensure ideas from certain people (i.e., you and me) are not subject to critique. You can note that this entire thread has treated any critique of the author as largely akin to a violent attack on them. What kind of discourse is that?

'Cancel culture' is a bad faith argument, not something you need to fear. It is a narrative created specifically to make you feel the way you describe in your edit when there is no evidence to support that. You don't need a throwaway...just like I'm totally identifiable from my account history while continuing to say dumb things, I manage that by (mostly) being respectful of people. Cancel culture is right wing propaganda.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#445

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #383

tptacek wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the only reasonable reading of the situation, and your framing here is pretty inflammatory. We're supposed to get calmer and more careful in our writing as topics get complicated; see the guidelines at the bottom of the page.

This person's career was destroyed because of an online mob. ...and that mob is not psychologically healthy. The online vengeance mob is a toxic and destructive part of our world.

[deleted]

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#446

Post by gnopgnip » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

caddemon wrote: post #438

clucas wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, or Kevin Spacey should have been cancelled? I agree that it's overboard on a lot of things, especially in the past couple years, but I think it's important to remember the "cancel culture" started as a way to hold certain people to account who were exhibiting socially unacceptable behavior, but were not being socially punished. All societies have social norms, and all societ…

Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey were literally charged with crimes, and Matt Lauer probably could be. There is no reason in theory that the criminal justice system couldn't handle the cases you brought up. Whether we need Twitter in practice to hold the justice system accountable is another can of worms, but there's a huge difference between calling out criminals that slipped through the cracks and calling out peop…

A mob on twitter doesn't decide anything

The idea that unless something is criminally prosecuted there should be no repercussions is toxic.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#447

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

rkk3 wrote: post #423

blast wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people say that kind of thing out of shame, for example if they feel humiliated and are trying to make the humiliation stop by agreeing with the person shaming them. Such statements should not be taken as factual confessions. I don't know anything about this situation, but that language sounds like that to me. Also, the first sentence of the current article makes me think that the author is given to oversta…

> Such statements should not be taken as factual confessions What does this even mean? Don't apologize for coercing people to have sex if you didn't do that.

[deleted]

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#448

Post by AlexCoventry » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #211

3grdlurker wrote: post #181

We talk about cancel culture like it’s a new horrible thing that’s developed only recently but I don’t see it that way. The internet definitely amplifies the effects, but unkindness begets unkindness, and the consequences or the social cost of one’s unkindness will always catch up to an individual at some point. That said, I draw a line at defamation. When someone is accusing someone online of having committed a crim…

Like so many things, this is something that has existed forever but now it has a new fashionable name and people treat it like it was just invented.

It's a continuation of earlier enforcement of social norms, but what's new is that it's so much more accessible and effective now.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#449

Post by avs733 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #395

verifex wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there is no justice system for things that are not illegal, but are ethically or morally bad. Society in the US and in much of the western world has agreed that the only official punishments due for anything are when laws are broken. No law broken, no punishment. This is actually a weakness of our society when the lawmaking bodies choose to sit on the sidelines when the ethical or moral values of…

> The problem is that there is no justice system for things that are not illegal, but are ethically or morally bad. That's not a problem, that's a feature ! After all, do you want to be punished for breaking someone else's moral code? Whether you like it or not, the legal system and the sets of laws is the only moral and ethical yardstick we have gotten society to agree on. If you want your particular set of morals t…

How far do you want to take this argument?

Warning people about someone's creepy behavior isn't a punishment, it's a warning that they might violate my moral code and I should probably avoid them. Is me avoiding them punishment? Should I then be punished? not punished?

Define punishment...

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#450

Post by avs733 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #143

What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.” None of which is illegal. It's not even a matter for civil litigation. He was not accused of doing this as a boss in an organization. Or in a workplace context. There were apparently no criminal charges. No EEOC complaints filed.[1] No a…

>What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.”

He could start by not posting a long diatribe about how he's the victim here?