I really hope that universities will consider their students before adopting this type of software.
EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
441–450 of 538 posts
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#442Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if I were to believe you, so what? So a person gets a degree they don't deserve. Now they have all this student loan debt they can't pay off because they can't get and keep a job in their field because they didn't actually study. Or they do get a job and are able to keep it down, in which case, so what if they cheated? They're clearly capable. Let them keep doing the job. My solution: get rid of degrees complete…
I actually agree with you here, our incentive structures are flawed for sure. The problem is, hiring is expensive, hiring mistakes are expensive, and new grads are a combination of “lack of signals” and “need lots of time to pan out”. The result is companies look for any possible signal - this more or less becomes a degree, and within the degree, the GPA. Thus incentivizing the student to get the degree with a high G…
Isn't effectively the entire problem with university/college in the current age that instead of its original purpose it's treated as a hiring filter for companies. Shouldn't we do anything we can to disincentivize use of college degrees as a signal for hiring?
Like, doing the job of software development a degree is completely irrelevant. Computer science degrees shouldn't be 4(?) year long coding bootcamps, they should be about computer science for people who are interested in computer science. (disclaimer I never did a computer science degree, I did chemistry but I felt the quality of the degree was similarly afflicted). Anything we can do to make college as a hiring signal worse for companies is better for the quality of education, better for people's financial health and better for equality.
The entire system is rotten and we need to bring the edifice crashing down, not make life easier for companies who are about the only entities with money. You know what costs a lot more than hiring relative to the entity's financial means? A student loan [citation needed I guess].
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#443Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. It varies (a lot!) by university and even department, but panel led oral exams are pretty common. At some places they are even open to the public (no pressure). These are distinct from a thesis defence, which happens at the end of your degree; they are likely to happen about a year in and are meant to ensure you have a solid background. Overall I think an oral exa…
> This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. America is leaking again.
Ok, from a terminology point of view that's fair - it isn't the same everywhere by any means.
However, most if not all of the graduate programs I know if internationally have something roughly equivalent, whether they are comps or prelims or qualifying or whatever.
The basic idea is that a department (and university, generally) has an interest in maintaining the quality of their programs, and one way to do that is to make sure that your students never leave with glaring holes in their background. The best way to do this is some sort of comprehensive evaluation, and the time to do it is at or near the beginning of a program - otherwise there is no time to address deficiencies.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#444Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's actually very disappointing that this whole monitoring system was deemed necessary to begin with. How screwed is the system that anyone one would believe this level of intrusion should be part of the education process.
cheating was absolutely rampant when I was in college getting my CS degree. and that was with tests taken in person with the professor in the room! I'm sure students are even more brazen when all assignments are done at home. I think at the very least, all exams ought to be designed as "open book" with a time limit. that at least eliminates the issue of students using unauthorized resources. I'm not sure what can be…
I maintain that cheating is almost always a pedagogical problem first, and a trust problem second.
Cheating becomes a convenient solution to a problem when you're dealing with a course with inadequate teaching, a difficult learning curve, or a lack of motivation for students to do their work to the best of their ability themselves, or a nonsensical curriculum. Fixing cheating doesn't involve surveillance - it instead involves removing the incentive structure that exists for cheating in the first place. This may involve rethinking grading, or course material, or assignments; but is certainly not impossible.
We act surprised when students "cheat" in CS exams that's expected to be done with only pen and paper - nearly any real workplace will give you an option of a text editor or IDE of your choice. So give them an IDE! Give them the API documentation! Don't create an incentive to test the waters to fix the broken rules of assignments.
Another relevant area of work is ungrading, or self-graded courses in general - when you remove the friction that grades cause in the feedback loop of learning; learning becomes an organic process for everyone involved. There's a lot of interesting pedagogical research, and just "cheating is rampant" doesn't scratch the surface of "but why is it?"
In addition, cheating is a game. Every second you spend drumming up cheating in front of your students is another second they think about trying to get away with cheating you. If you tell students they're not to be trusted, they will not give you any reasons to trust them; in many cases it's as simple as that.
A combination of good pedagogical design, and building a relationship of mutual trust with your students, is certainly more fruitful than creating an academic police state (of which Proctorio is only one part of). There will always be people slipping through the cracks, but there are other safeguards in the world to catch them too.
Another important thing is that conversations about cheating always assume a very specific framing of higher education - that they exist primarily as a gatekeeper or arbiter of who-knows-what; the university also has the purpose of providing an environment for learning. And in many cases, cheating is just a result of a failure to provide that environment.
In addition, if the primary beneficiary of university degrees are the employers (or the people who care about the who-knows-what stamp), then why do students foot the bill for tuition? If you choose to accept this framing of universities primarily as arbiters, isn't access to a degree just a head tax to enter the skilled labor market?
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#445Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.
I would add some nuance to this view. For nearly every undergraduate course I agree - the ability of knowing where to look for resources in a particular subject matter, synthesizing the available information to solve a reasonably novel problem, and presenting the information in a coherent way is a skill/art that should be one of the primary goals of the education. For advanced degrees, though, I'm not so sure. I expe…
At graduate level, there is too much stuff. You know the outline, you know where to find stuff. But you don't need to know everything exactly. If you forgot one passage from a definition, that should not cause a failure. Because in 'real Mathematics' you get to look at references.
A nice trick for open book is to make it time-infeasible to just look up everything. But allow students access to the materials incase they have a brainfart.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#446Earlier quoted context omitted.
With a CS degree a better solution is make it project based. Even if someone uses code found somewhere, just changing it up to not be obvious, that's not that different than actual industry, AND means they had to understand it at some level. And that's for stuff they -can- search for (such as 'implement a data structure/algorithm').
There's software to detect copy-pasted code or plagiarized (it analyses the syntax tree so renaming the variables and changing indentation won't fool it!). The best however, is a 1:1 code review with a TA or Prof. Randomly jumping to files, reading the code and asking questions about it. Extremely hard to copy a codebase and learn it well enough you can explain it but really easy to do if you wrote it yourself.
The sky's the limit when you think about it really.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#447Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would add some nuance to this view. For nearly every undergraduate course I agree - the ability of knowing where to look for resources in a particular subject matter, synthesizing the available information to solve a reasonably novel problem, and presenting the information in a coherent way is a skill/art that should be one of the primary goals of the education. For advanced degrees, though, I'm not so sure. I expe…
My experience with people who are PhD is that they know things you expect to memorize just because they use it a lot. They learn formulas or whatever not because they spend 5 hours memorizing it, but because they needed it once, so they looked it up. The second time they needed it, they weren't 100% sure, so they looked it up again just in case. Every time they search for it, they need it less and less and at the end…
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#448Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe catching a few cheaters here and there isn't worth implementing The Panopticon for everyone else.
The cynic in me believes without any disincentive to cheating, “few cheaters” become “almost all participants”. I was a TA in a prominent CS university. We used software that would compare everyone’s submissions to see if things were copied. The penalty for getting caught was high, and we made it clear to everyone that this software was, while not perfect, capable of detecting simple tricks (like copying code and ren…
There is research that the certainty of getting caught is the strongest deterrent (as opposed to the severity of the consequences if someone gets caught) and yet, assuming the software was as good as you suggest and assuming the students were adequately and repeatedly warned, 2-5% of the class still chose to cheat. Which begs the question: why would so many (presumably logical and rational) students take such a risk despite knowing they were substantially likely to be caught?
I have to imagine those students, for whatever reason, felt cheating was their best (or perhaps only) option.
The cynic in me believes we’ve created a system that strongly incentivizes getting an expensive piece of paper with a value completely divorced from what it was intended to represent: having studied.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. America is leaking again.
> America is leaking again. Ok, from a terminology point of view that's fair - it isn't the same everywhere by any means. However, most if not all of the graduate programs I know if internationally have something roughly equivalent, whether they are comps or prelims or qualifying or whatever. The basic idea is that a department (and university, generally) has an interest in maintaining the quality of their programs,…
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#450Earlier quoted context omitted.
I switched to online exams this year, no zoom, no special software, no checks at all. Grades were as usual. A couple of students cheated and were detected, all the others were very honest to the point that I wouldn't be myself if I were in their place. It can work, but you need to expect people to look up things.
One of my colleagues had an online exam. The exam was uploaded to chegg within minutes, by multiple people. Unfortunately, the tests were personalized, so the people could be identified. I think cheating is quite common in the undergrad years, but gets less later.