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EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

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441–450 of 780 posts

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#441
post #5

I was told that this only happens in authoritarian regimes like China. Turns out that while everybody was talking about China exact same things were happening here in the West. It's as if the whole focus on China was specifically designed to distract people from what's happening in their own countries.

"China exact same things were happening here in the West"

No, there's really no comparison.

A justice system, with reasonable information to infer a crime, seeking a warrant, using rules and regulations that have integrity, oversight, sanctioned by a Judge, following specific rules of access with certain, proportional criteria - is nothing like 'China'.

In fact, we are already subject to that, everywhere in Europe, just not your messaging apps.

It is not totalitarian whatsoever - there is just the risk of totalitarianism creeping in. A risk, which quite frankly is overstated. There is almost zero material harm that comes to innocent individuals as a result of these policies in states with lawful civic infrastructure. There can be, but it's rare and again, the 'problem' is more expansive and that an authoritarian takes power and uses the system for unlawful purposes.

China does not have an independent legal system, or much concern for human rights. The CCP uses these things to censor every day speech on a variety of topics - even for the most innocuous things like comparing Xi to 'Winnie the Pooh' let alone for discussing things like Tibet, Hong Kong, or Taiwan privately.

The CPP uses these controls as an 'total and complete information and thought control system' that interjects into every aspect of life. If you talk bad about Xi on your 'chat'- that will literally go on your file. It could affect your credit, promotional opportunities, how the justice system treats you etc..

They have successfully suppressed and controlled dialogue on a variety of issues - this system is frankly the CCP's most powerful means of control, far more so than anything physical like the 'police' or the 'army'.

Western governments want to use it to go after people making bombs, sex traffickers, and tax evaders. There is no chance that the German government is going to send police to your house because you said 'Angela Merkel is a clown and needs to go!' to your buddy on WeChat. There is a chance some future government could to it, for the wrong reasons, and that's cause for come concern, but it's not pragmaticaly the issue.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#442
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do live in a dangerous world. Pretty much everybody loses their life somehow. It's amazing to me that so many of my peers survived childhood. It is pretty stupid to try to jump a car on your bicycle without a landing ramp. Or play catch with lit M80s. And those weren't our dumbest ideas. When I was a kid every 8-year-old pushed a lawn mower around once a week. And rode in the back of a pickup truck. Today I don't…

>Pretty much everybody loses their life somehow. Yeah that's called life. >Today I don't let my kids ride in the back of pickup trucks, and I'm nervous about the lawn mower. That's because you already infected with fear. It's not your Children's fault that you don't trust them with a lawn mower..it's you and probably your society that is the problem. >Some dangers and some fears need to be met head on. Yes like wear…

I think what you are alluding to is the key, life has gotten so good that people get into extreme loss aversion. In my opinion the key to a decent life is to take calculated risks and if that goes wrong, then oh well that was unlucky.

There are a lot of risky things we do all day anyway, like driving any car or walking close to road. Those things are still incredibly safe.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#443
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy for people to lose sight of this with all the bad news we're seeing in 2020, but the present is the safest time in history when zoomed out to a scale of decades. The decline in violence since the 1900s to today is essentially global and scales from bar fights to wars.

Is it safer than 2015?

2020 may not be safer than 2015, but 2010-2020 is safer than 2000-2010. You might be able to find a recent 10 year period that beats the exact past 10 years by a slim margin.

On any scale between a human lifespan and the whole of human history, now is a pretty safe time to be alive.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it? This kind of transmission of messages could be hidden alongside legitimate looking traffic like updates...

Also wven if it does not exhilarated user data now , it's one update from doing that tomorrow . Quite possible even via a targeted update on some specific people "not in favor". If it was open source there is some chance a backdoor would be spotted (eq. by Linux distropackage msintainers), but not when a company is pushing obfuscated binary blobs preatty much directly to users.

Well, not directly, for most people that would be via Apple/Google stores.

And of course these stores could have secret functionality for shipping targeted updates.

But if it exists, this means that 1) none of the developers working on the store backend decided to leak info about it and 2) none of the targets have had an expert look at their device to find an unusual update that wasn't seen by anyone else.

Over time, the probability of either of those things happening would be going up…

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#445
post #130

How is this going to be enforced? The easy thing to do is to ban chat apps offering encryption. But the consequences are much greater. For example, do they need to ban Tor or I2P as well, even SSH? Unencrypted applications will gain encryption and sometimes even anonymization if encapsulated within these. What about abusing legal services using encryption for chat like purposes? All they need to do is to offer collab…

I imagine that human language will evolve to facilitate key exchange and encryption as you speak

This even has a SF book written about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradyzja

A writer from Earth visits a space station in another solar system called "Paradise". The space station is ruled by a tatalitary regime on the grounds of safety of the inhabitants as the plannet they originally went to settle truned out to be uninhabitable.

As a results the space station inhabitants live in cramped conditions in rooms with glass walls with no privacy and a computer system analyses their every word for signs of dissent. If some digression is detected, the system automatically lowers social score of the ofeending person.

Lower score means less priviledges and a shitty job and the lowest score means forced labor in dangerous mines on the planet surface "for the good of all". Sometimes people survive that and come back though.

So what have ortinary citizens devised to combat this opressive nightmare ? Steganographic peoetry! It even has its own page on the Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koalang

Due to the shear amount of material the spzing is done bz computers, so people speak a combonation of metaphors and poetry in a way that can convey meaning to the other party but not to the machine listening in. Its not that easy though, as the spy system is self learning, so one has to continually adjust and not repeate the same methapors ot the computer might get the meaning.

Still the question is - why are they doing this ? Its almost as if the opressive regime ruling the station was not telling the truth and was working hard to cover something very fundametal up about the Paradise station...

We had this book on our highschool reading list and it left quite an impression.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#446
post #390
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then you have to hope that a jury doesn't see your long pointless messages as strong evidence of using encryption Don't legal people routinely just take few word sentences and rewrite them into long paragraphs of aforementioned hereinafter notwithstanding including but not limited to senseless nonsense?

So long as it looks normal for you, I suspect you’d be fine. If I started writing long paragraphs of aforementioned hereinafter notwithstanding including but not limited to senseless nonsense, I’d be really obvious — at least to a human, not sure if current AI would notice me yet.

Plausible deniability though – who said you can't have a hobby of intentionally making up nonsense texts, sending them to friends to laugh at?

(Of course the public existence of software that does this could definitely make that excuse less convincing.)

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#447

This is madness. Oh, of course, it's much easier to put a wrench into some gears to show that you are actually working at "solving the terrorism problem" than shaving the yaks, but that machine is actually important for other things. We live in a dangerous world. We cannot control everything. I don't mind a slight risk of terrorist attack on myself or my family (caveat lector: I am young), if that means greater freed…

> We live in a dangerous world. No, West Europe used to be really safe. Then it changed because of unrestricted immigration policies. East Europe countries are still pretty safe with no terrorism.

Western Europe is still incredibly safe, and in my quick overview safer than eastern Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

My home country is Norway, it looks safer than all of Eastern Europe, sometimes by an order of magnitude.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#448
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several EU governments use Matrix - so yeah, there's a paradox here. On one hand Element (the company set up by the core Matrix team) depends on government work to keep the lights on for Matrix work, but on the other hand we feel a clear responsibility to push back on backdoors, given backdoors are intrinsically flawed and dangerous. This is why we're proposing a (hopefully) better alternative instead (and this is al…

It's probably something along the lines of 'guns for me but not for thee'. But they don't even have the excuse of encryption actively hurting anyone, so it's more like 'strong walls for me but not for thee'

It does hinder police investigations, so it comes down to how much harm you think obstructing the police causes.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#449

I see this as follows: 1. Terrorism and trafficking of children will win the moral high ground. 2. App stores will be forced locale by locale to conform to these policies. 3. Most people will not notice or care. 4. This will be used by N-Eyes and totalitarian governments to quash dissent. 5. Meanwhile the tech crowd will create alternate app distribution mechanisms allowing those who care to communicate securely. 6.…

> How do we prevent (4)

• By ensuring there is always an opposing power.

• By maintaining democracy, by which I mean the tenet of electing governments from the citizenry as well as by the citizenry, and specifically rather than any of the oligarchical forms.

• By maintaining the rule of law.

The consequences being, if all encryption is backdoored, then any encryption used by politicians is by definition eavesdroppable by their opponents and enemies. Since all politicians thrive in a web of mendacity and confidences, they have a strong incentive for strong encryption, and will eventually terminate/abandon legislation that weakens it.

Any politician that threatens otherwise is therefore a) grandstanding, and/or b) using the issue to leverage/negotiate something else.

Corollaries:

• Any government seriously implementing such a plan is operating as an oligarchy rather than a democracy, and will have plans to defend themselves from the surveillance imposed on the citizens.

• The first instinct of every would-be oligarch is to undermine the machinery of democracy and compromise the rule of law.

c.f. Utopia (Australia, 2014) Season 4 Episode 4 "Mission Creeps", and probably at least one Jim Hacker moment.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#450
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is interesting, care to elaborate?

It is trivial to create an app using encryption to send messages between two users. On Android you can sideload so no need for app store. You can also solve this with a webpage, this way it can be used on all devices. The point is that creating a secure channel few users use is pretty trivial unless you outlaw crypto libraries. These laws can only take down apps/websites in mainstream use.

Sure, but you also need to recruit, and it's sort of hard to find new candidates if all you use is your super secret crypto app.
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