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Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

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441–450 of 488 posts

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A discount is of course not the same as paying for itself (e.g. a 100% discount.) Some people think of reduced taxes as being a dollar-for-dollar credit (not you, of course.) The forced spending by the end of a fiscal tax year is often offset by delivery or implementation contracts to mitigate the damage of having to time the purchase for tax purchases.

Right, it's a deduction, not a credit, so it only partially pays for itself on a direct tax basis, but generally the expense is money the business would have spent anyways on its business. But the point is that a business with a higher tax rate has a greater incentive to spend money, and to spend more of it. And as a practical matter, history has demonstrated that businesses actually invest less during periods of low…

We haven’t seen a protracted low tax period under modern economic circumstances.

Certainly considered in isolation this investment sounds attractive. In conjunction with the benefits of paychecks and dividends being spent elsewhere in the economy it’s less certain.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#442

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

But why invest instead of just taking the tax hit unless you’re waiting for a lower tax rate in the future? It seems this scheme of incentives is dependent on some future expectation of taxes dropping.

Let's say that I own a 5 million dollar business that makes 1 million per year in profit, and the corporate tax rate is 40%. I could take my profit and pay my taxes, leaving me with a 5 million dollar company and $600k cash. Alternatively I could "spend" that $600k to get 1 million dollars in cash interest free to invest in my company, raising its valuation to 6 million. Assuming with the investment that that the company continues to generate 20% profit, even if the tax rate stays the same, I make $720k per year after taxes. Considering I invested 1 million and I'm making an extra $120k per year, that's a 12% ROI/yr - not bad, not great. But since it only cost me $600k to make that investment, I'm really getting 20% ROI/yr. If taxes drop in the future, the ROI further increases, but they don't need to for it to be advantageous. Even if I never actually take profits, my net worth is still going up, and I can cash that in by selling the business or some of its assets at some future point.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent example was of "100,000 shares of AMZN... taxed 1,000", which matches 0.1%. I used that number since that was the number the parent comment saw as being obviously too much already, so I didn't need to use a higher number. I do think 0.1% would already be pretty appreciable. That's already several 10s of billions a year. The current budget for all of the IRS is on the order of 10s of billions now, so I real…

I might be parsing the original text wrong, but 1,000 out of 100,000 is 1%. Not 0.1% ?!?

Ah, yup, I'm an idiot. This is why my computer normally does math for me.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#444
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some evidence for this are parts of Europe is abandoning their wealth taxes. That's not evidence. We have right-wing parties in Europe too. They introduce right-wing policies when they have power, such as the above.

Do you think that successful policies are as likely to be rolled back as unsuccessful ones?

What kind of strange reasoning is that? Policies are enacted for multiple reasons, very often without any concrete evidence that it's better or worse.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#445

The real solution: a flat tax. 20% for everyone, regardless of take. A fair, non-political solution. Dismantle the IRS, ditch all of the complexity.

Progressive taxation is viewed as more fair by more people that flat taxation. You're using "income" as your input variable to calculate "fairness", but you could just as easily use "disposable income". Someone making $25,000 per year might have a disposable income of $0. Asking this person to kick in $5000 seems ludicrous. I honestly don't know how you could assess fairness without looking at ability-to-pay: (income…

I'd rather see a tax floor than progressive taxing. Assuming deductions weren't a thing, if you're making less than $40k per year (for example, I'd have to do the math to figure out the exact amount based on commodity and housing prices), you don't pay taxes.

That, or a progressive tax with a ceiling at 20%.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land doesn't depreciate, only structures and improvements to the land. Mortgage interest is not included in the basis of real property or in depreciation. It's just another deductible expense. Most real estate companies are partnerships or REITs due to special tax provisions. But most of their investors are corporate entities. Generally, profits from rent are not reinvested in buying more real estate because they sim…

> Land doesn't depreciate, only structures and improvements to the land. The structures are generally the majority of the value of the property. > Mortgage interest is not included in the basis of real property or in depreciation. It's just another deductible expense. Nonetheless it's a major expense and fully deductible. They also get to deduct property maintenance etc. > Most real estate companies are partnerships…

The structures are generally the majority of the value of the property.

Depends, unless you're talking about very large structures like office buildings, factories, or malls in which case the structures are definitely worth more than the land. For most residential and small-to-midsize commercial plots, it depends on where the land is. In states like HI, CA, NY, and NJ, the land is worth more than the structures on top of it, and that is triply true in cities like LA and SF.

Nonetheless it's a major expense and fully deductible.

Yes, it's generally a real property company's biggest expense. But as far as business expenses go, it's not that big compared to the expenses another business would face. (My real estate clients included a number of REITs, including a major mall chain, and the owners of a number of LA, NY, SF office towers.)

They also get to deduct property maintenance etc.

Generally, no. Under a triple-net lease, they would not get to deduct these costs because they're not paying them. Most commercial properties are leased on a triple-net basis, so the tenant is paying maintenance costs.

A group of ten individuals who get together to buy an apartment complex are not a corporation. Moreover, if the investors are a corporation, it's still one less layer of indirection -- for a corporate investor, if the real estate holding company were an S Corp you would be paying corporate income tax twice.

My statement was directed to the real world, in which most investors in REITs and real estate partnerships are corporate entities, not to a hypothetical situation.

Also, I'm not sure if you are aware of this but an S-Corp does not pay corporate income taxes, so there's only a single layer of tax whether they use an S-Corp, LLC, REIT, or LP, or GP. They're all flow-through entities for tax purposes that are differentiated primarily by their legal/compliance burdens.

This is true until the debt is paid, but then isn't that the point? They get to deduct the interest and depreciation and maintenance, and wipe out their rental income.

Yes, that's the point, but more to the point, that's the entire point of real estate investing. You make your money selling the real estate, but it's a holding game until then; you just care that you make enough in rental income to pay your debt service costs (it's not that you wipe out your rental income with expenses, it's that your expenses are covered by the rental income). This is why property owners can let storefronts remain vacant for years, so long as their rental income from the building is otherwise covering debt service.

That would result in real estate sales in low tax years, i.e. willingness to divest rather than willingness to invest. During the high tax years people would want to buy/hold and continue speculating to continue to defer paying the high taxes on the appreciation.

Right, but the flip side of you divesting is someone else investing, at appreciated costs from you paid.

The exception of course is those real property companies that are not engaged in speculation but are primarily in the business of being landlords. They have actual businesses, and correspondingly tend to spend more on upgrades during periods of higher taxes. (See, e.g., LA's or SF's office markets: prior to the TCJA tax cuts, billions or hundreds of millions spent on improving existing office buildings but since then essentially zilch.)

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't everyone? Plus, there's other reasons to be skeptical of wealth taxes, capital flight is a real thing.

> capital flight is a real thing Yep, that's why all of the rich people have left New York and California.

You think rich people are paying those kind of taxes? Why wouldn't they leave if this wealth tax were suddenly imposed upon them?

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it's a deduction, not a credit, so it only partially pays for itself on a direct tax basis, but generally the expense is money the business would have spent anyways on its business. But the point is that a business with a higher tax rate has a greater incentive to spend money, and to spend more of it. And as a practical matter, history has demonstrated that businesses actually invest less during periods of low…

We haven’t seen a protracted low tax period under modern economic circumstances. Certainly considered in isolation this investment sounds attractive. In conjunction with the benefits of paychecks and dividends being spent elsewhere in the economy it’s less certain.

Why do you say it affects paychecks? My understanding is that these tax breaks almost never translate into bonuses or pay wages rising. Often times it goes to shareholders, which don’t represent a significant portion of the population, and only really benefit an even smaller group (because they have enough skin in the game to make a diff).

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is why should someone get progressively taxed when they are attempting to live a "median" American lifestyle. That is a home, a bedroom for each child (etc as the CNBC article pointed out)

They are still making nearly 6x the "median" income in their city so saying they are attempting to live a "median" American lifestyle is disingenuous.

But that's the point. If the median experience, in absolute goods is a certain thing, then why should someone making 6x the median income not be able to afford such a thing. And more topically, why should we introduce additional progressive marginal decrements to what they are able to have?

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#450
post #307
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You pay taxes on all of your income. But businesses only pay taxes on their profit. It's a big, big difference that changes the incentives. It’d be insane to have it any other way for businesses. Whole swathes of low margin businesses would be impossible to operate. For example a super markets average margins are 3-5%. Corporate tax is (generally) on profits because you can deduct costs. It allows for the flow of m…

> The real scam is when things like health insurance premiums are deductible for a company but not for an individual. To be fair, that this "scam" is still alive today is mostly by accident. It stems from WWII times, when stateside laborers were uniquely low in supply and high in demand, and when labor had ridiculous bargaining power. Laborers couldn't really ask for higher wages, because that was politically impossi…

>> Laborers couldn't really ask for higher wages, because that was politically impossible

Not just politically impossible, illegal:

>> World War II disrupted those trends. As demand for everything — particularly labor — climbed, Congress passed the Stabilization Act of 1942, which allowed the president to freeze wages and salaries for all the nation's workers. A day after its passage, President Franklin Roosevelt issued an executive order invoking these powers, which applied to "all forms of direct or indirect remuneration to an employee," including but not limited to salaries and wages, as well as "bonuses, additional compensation, gifts, commissions, fees."

But there was an exemption of massive proportions slipped into a fateful clause: "insurance and pension benefits" could grow "in a reasonable amount" during the freeze."

- https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-obamaca...

And, relevant to today's discussion:

>> By slapping corporations with tax rates of 80 or even up to 90 percent on any profits in excess of prewar revenue, Congress all but guaranteed a frenzied search for loopholes.

Also interesting to note that the change in question wasn't a switch from workers paying for their own health insurance to it being paid for by employers. Prior to WW2 less than 10% of Americans had any form of health insurance, by the end of the war it was close to 30%.

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