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Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

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Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#441
post #281
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always makes me think of that STTNG episode where they destroy the Borg collective by injecting a fascinating but impossible geometry problem. Cryptocurrency basically did that to the hacker and startup spheres, wasting unfathomable amounts of money, resources, and brain power.

Do you honestly believe, and this is a real question, that all of these brilliant people who come from well known companies spend nearly a decade of their life working tirelessly on building an ecosystem that many thousands of other developers interact with daily, just haven't realized yet that it's completely useless?

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unclear what level you're asking this at. -- Modeling: You start with basics like using the small universe assumption to bound checking to X transactions. I'd expect most front running to show up as small cycles here, so the typical case is a super small X. Later, you might get into a time cost semantics to better tune what you consider interesting, but almost no one in the crypto space is at the level of modelin…

In the article the attacker simply pays a higher fee to have their call executed first. How does verification help you in this case? It sounds a bit like it would just tell you that your design sucks and you need to change it, but that's not really helpful if it does that for all designs you can come up with. I'm not convinced you can spend 500k and make the problem go away. If it turns out the problem can only be fi…

A couple things here didn't make sense to me:

* $500K / develop from scratch is too expensive:

Nope! I actually hedged by ~10X :) In reality, I'd advocate building successively better verifiers as more & more money flows through, with the first solid prototype being $20K-$50K.

One good MS/PhD student in the verification community can build a decent toolkit over a summer (= $20-50K). The reason is that tools like those I mentioned earlier are intentionally language-agnostic and part of 15+ year movement of building out lightweight generic toolkits for this stuff.

Think of it like a CI system: you get most bang for the buck by building out basic unit tests early on, and as your system becomes worth more $, get into integration testing, and one day, chaos engineering. Same for different levels of verifiers.

* Some problems are inherent to all designs...yet you're better off hiring people? That doesn't make sense to me. What are the expensive per-contract outside people going to do if they can't fix the bug? That's worst of both worlds!

When a verifier flags the issue, if a team can't figure out a fix, at least now they can now mitigate the risk (e.g., shut it off, only put in so much money, get insurance, hedge/diversify, monitor for the exploit happening, ..).

My broader statement is verification tech is increasingly accessible and building out some of it for an org deploying contracts is similar to a utility co building out monitoring or a software shop building out CI. Not for the weekend coder, but should be basic engineering for a professional shop.

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#443
post #281
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always makes me think of that STTNG episode where they destroy the Borg collective by injecting a fascinating but impossible geometry problem. Cryptocurrency basically did that to the hacker and startup spheres, wasting unfathomable amounts of money, resources, and brain power.

Do you honestly believe, and this is a real question, that all of these brilliant people who come from well known companies spend nearly a decade of their life working tirelessly on building an ecosystem that many thousands of other developers interact with daily, just haven't realized yet that it's completely useless?

Yes, I think that is entirely possible.

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#444
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They farmed $4140 before tx fees and interest, so they made about $4k. Not too shabby...

Curious, you seem pretty well informed about Ethereum, blockchain, etc. Do you work in the space?

Wish I were, but I am too old to work in a start-up, and I have family to feed so I won't work for $30k/y. I am just spending all my free time reading up on the stuff - to me, it's the most interesting tech revolution since the early web of the 1990's

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are talking about the "blockchain with backdoors" scenario (which absolutely defeats the principle and the purpose of any major existing system) AND making the existing leading chains illegal. That is certainly is a possibility and a valid view, but to me a very short-sighted one. It assumes social-political systems are static. It makes us take for granted that global top-down Governments (hopefully democratic…

This may be my lack of imagination, but I can't see it ever being any other way. Hierarchical governance seems natural to us, pretty much written into fabric of social reality. Once a group reaches more than couple dozen members, interpersonal pressures crumble as two random people don't really know each other or depend on one another - and you need to create a level of governance in order for the group to grow and s…

This could be a good long conversation to have. Not sure if HN is the best place and format for it, so I will keep it short.

> Hierarchical governance seems natural to us, pretty much written into fabric of social reality.

Hierarchies have existed for basically forever and it's almost always the natural state of organizations not just for humans. I wouldn't argue the opposite. What has changed and almost certainly will keep changing is the nature of these different hierarchies. Moreover, we have more than one single type of hierarchy co-existing. Just compare Switzerland to China in present time, or compare the independence of Hellenic city-states with the growing centralization of the EU and you will know what I mean.

The one thing that is recent (and IMO misguided and/or totalitarian) is the idea that we can organize ourselves into one single global hierarchy, an all-encompassing entity that would be able to subject all different countries into one unified set of rules. Some look at Europe and the EU as a way to show that would be a good thing, but completely ignore the fact that the EU it is not an unanimous organization. Libertarians think that all-out globalization and absolute free-flow of commerce will smooth out every international issue and will completely ignore the fact that this only works if every one is on similar level of individual freedom and economic development. Communists refuse to accept past failed attempts because in their view Communism can only work if the whole world adopts it.

Every Utopian project that requires every one to conform to one single set of rules has failed and will always fail due to the impossibility of satisfying the needs, values and wants of everyone at a global scale. I hope we can agree on that.

> Once a group reaches more than couple dozen members (...) you need to create a level of governance in order for the group to grow and stay coordinated.

Right, and the beauty of blockchain is precisely that it solves the Byzantine Generals Problem. You can have any number of people that don't know and don't trust each other able to coordinate without any central authority.

Granted, this is not a perfect solution. It's not like that just because we can have a computer network telling us "who controls X and who should have access to Y" that people will blindly follow it. You will still have groups trying to control things by force, abuse the system and so on. Societies will still have to have their military forces.

The key difference is that now these disparate people and societies no longer requires nation-states to organize themselves. People won't be forced to swear allegiance with to one tribe or another just because of the place they were born, etc.

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#446
post #286
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLS issuance is decentralized too, yet Certificate Transparency provides accountability, and inclusion into Mozilla's trusted CA list is basically the vetting process that binds CAs to legal entities. In theory in crypto currency world "staking" is this process.

TLS is not decentralised, it's hierarchical. There are a fairly small number of root CAs, and an even smaller number of browser makers who define their trusted lists.

Just the Mozilla CA list has more than a hundred CAs ... https://ccadb-public.secure.force.com/mozilla/IncludedCACert...

And you can install your trust root if you want, for example I can't find any Russian ones in that list, so probably the Russian government uses internal ones. (Their tax authority interestingly uses Sectigo a CA from the UK.)

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#447
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even without the real part I showed 44% is illegal activity, which is ore than 16%.

It is still unrelated to the point of comparing the percentage of funds taken from its owners or misappropriated in the blockchain vs fiat. The activity may be illegal, so what? They were still desired by both participants. Bringing that to the story is still goal-post moving.

You commented on “cost of violence”, if you talk about cost of violence this includes illegal activity.

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#448
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still unrelated to the point of comparing the percentage of funds taken from its owners or misappropriated in the blockchain vs fiat. The activity may be illegal, so what? They were still desired by both participants. Bringing that to the story is still goal-post moving.

You commented on “cost of violence”, if you talk about cost of violence this includes illegal activity.

Depending on the jurisdiction, a lot of non-violent activities are considered illegal and happen on black markets anyway: gambling/sports betting, recreational drugs, contraband goods, prostitution... A lot of the "violence" that you are trying to prescribe to this comes from the fact that these activities are pushed to the underground, not due to the activity itself.

You are grasping at straws and you know it. Right now all your argument is based on your preconceptions against blockchain, but you are misattributing a whole lot of things to it.

Come back when you have a significant number of cases of people being attacked in order to get their bitcoin wallets stolen, banks being robbed for private keys in paper wallets or corrupt officials locking people up and demanding crypto for payment. Then I will start listening to you in regards to "violence that is caused by the nature of cryptocurrency and blockchain"

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, they blabber about how it's not actually waste because people value the waste. It's effectively a logical extension of the marginal value theory applied to ignorant self-destruction. While they will talk about marginal value, they don't talk about entire systems incentivized to operate by creating value destructively , aka externalization at its finest.

If there is a geothermal source of energy in a location that is impossible to transmit electricity from, and you use it to mine bitcoin, is this immoral and a “waste” of energy? This literally happens in Iceland.

Yes.

Re: Ethereum Is a Dark Forest

#450
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that replacing "ethereum" with "the stock market" or "the USD" in your sentence pretty much yields another truism, right?

Why? Those are the places people do normal business. Extremely efficiently.

> being sniped, frontrun, or exploited

All of those and more will occur to you if you try to professionally trade large public markets

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