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Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

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Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#441

I conducted a couple hundred interviews for my first FAANG employer, and I was constantly amazed at the percentage of candidates with years of Microsoft or Facebook experience on the resumes who apparently did not know how to program. I always thought, 'huh, guess I know why they quit after 3 years, amazing that they all lasted this long." Then I interviewed for another company and utterly bombed. It became suddenly…

You've been arrogant for years and you know what? So have I. I and many, many people in this industry have been doing this for years. What's different from you and many other people is that you admit and face your bias rather than justify it. I'm seriously curious what google interview board members have to say about this study. People like Gayle Laakmaan have been saying things to justify the whole process for years…

At the start of my third year as a student, I biked through a record-worthy rainfall to my first interview with a small local games studio. Showed up completely soaked, but sat down relaxed and feeling reasonably confident. (I had done a handful of unity and opengl projects.)

The interview started with a bit of small talk, I chatted with one of the guys about Brood War and Starcraft 2. Later during the technical interview they asked me about the difference between private, protected, and public and said I was the only student they had interviewed who had answered correctly which was wild and honestly stunned me for a moment.

They liked how in one of my examples of scripting something I had written some fun dialog and I mentioned I did writing as a hobby which seemed like a plus. I talked about which classes I enjoyed the most and how they were challenging/interesting.

I did not get a job offer and learned from a friend that I had come off as "depressed and disinterested" (I don't think they realized he was going to relay that info to me...) All I can do is guess that it's a combination from showing up completely drenched and sharing how I enjoyed those "challenging" classes made it seem like I would get quickly bored of scripting...

After that, I bombed an interview for a QA role because I went into it completely unprepared for just how much it would differ from a programming interview.

Point being those first two experiences got in my head and I basically had anxiety over anything job-hunt related for the next 2.5 years.

When I did get a job, I was extremely happy with the interview process (even though I felt I did poorly on it). Here's more or less how it was structured (TL;DR):

  - Office tour/chat with a programmer who had referred me
  - quick 5 minute introduction to senior programmers in charge of the technical interview  
  - 1 hour alone in a meeting room with a laptop and 4 written questions (a generous amount of time)  
  - ~15 minutes reviewing my answers with the senior programmers  
    - importantly, they gave me a chance to talk about my answers and when I got something wrong they would simply state that it had an error and see if I could spot it  
  - 15 minutes on C++/memory/performance/behavior quirks (important stuff in AAA games)  
  - ~30 minutes talking about stuff I had worked on  
    - occasionally they would mention something related I hadn't heard about and explain it while gauging how well I could follow along
Basically, based on my own interview experience/anxiety if I had to choose an interview method, it would be very similar to what I just mentioned. Seeing a familiar face and the introduction followed by the alone time did a lot to ease my anxiety. The time where I felt most comfortable was talking about the stuff I had done because I was very familiar with all of it/it was easy to talk about.

The process seemed less focused on where I had gaps in my knowledge and more focused if I had a decent amount of knowledge in general and if I had the ability to recognize and correct the gaps in my knowledge.

Sorry if it's a bit of an info dump, but it's something I think back to a lot.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#442
post #138

It seems pretty obvious to me that this kind of interviews are simply there to assess how much you want to work for a certain company. As in: would you be willing to study for months, go through mock interviews, read books, test your skills etc. to have a shot at working for us? Even though the majority of that stuff will likely have zero impact on your day to day work? That's all there is, really. I've had no proble…

I've been told to reject a candidate because "he didn't seem that excited to work here"

I have rejected candidates for that. When you're hiring for a startup it's absolutely vital to have people who believe in the mission and the product and not just doing the bare minimum for a paycheck. If that's all you want, go work for the government, or Facebook.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#443
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bomb on technical interviews the same way because my mind just freezes and can't get through even simple problems. I had the same question you mention. "This is a problem a paper was written on, are you expecting me to derive a whole paper from first principles in half an hour, or are you expecting me to have seen it before? If it's the latter, why not let me Google, as I normally would?" I feel that saying "I woul…

The funny thing about this is: They're not looking for someone that is eager enough to show they're willing to work through it even though they have no idea to proceed. They are looking for someone that got lucky enough to be ready to answer that particular problem, but won't stand up to them that the ask was a bit too much for a reasonable interview that is intended to see if you're a fit for the company and skilled…

Don't forget, not only are they looking for someone who already just knows the answer, they frequently aren't hesitant to penalize someone who says "Fair warning: I've already seen this problem."

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#444
post #377

People bomb, including good people. That is sadly part of the system. Once I had this candidate. Damn, I know my questions are deceptively simple on purpose, but he literally couldn't do anything. Not even a trivial brute force. Not even any related simple knowledge questions. Couldn't tell an average from a median. The only good thing I could write in the feedback was "seems to know some basic syntax". It was quite…

One trend I've noticed that is markedly different from when I started programming in 1998, is how dependent we've become to program via Google/StackExchange searches. I'm not sure I know how to write anything from scratch anymore, because I just search/read/alter/test. The breadth of what I work on is 100x wider than it used to be, and so I've become absolutely dependent on quickly reading docs, copying code found on…

It's not just you :) A much more realistic way to test people is to tell them to bring their laptop, point to a problem on the whiteboard and say "here, solve it, and use whatever resources you need."

I'm somewhat like you; I do a wide variety of tasks every day and simply can't keep all the different rules and syntaxes in my head. I'm terrible at tests anyway and would probably bomb a FAANG interview badly because of my lousy memory.

As an interviewer, I would rather someone be generally smart, have a good work ethic and lots of experience solving problems. In the long run that seems more useful than being able to write computer programs on a piece of paper in a conference room.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#445
post #377

People bomb, including good people. That is sadly part of the system. Once I had this candidate. Damn, I know my questions are deceptively simple on purpose, but he literally couldn't do anything. Not even a trivial brute force. Not even any related simple knowledge questions. Couldn't tell an average from a median. The only good thing I could write in the feedback was "seems to know some basic syntax". It was quite…

> Couldn't tell an average from a median Without meaning to attack you personally (especially in the context of the rest of your comment), a comment like this annoys me a bit. I presume by "average" you mean arithmetic mean, but the median is also an average, and depending on the context the median might be a far more useful statistic than the mean. Confusing the mean and the median is one thing, and perhaps you actu…

I know nothing about GP, but note that it is possible that English is not his first language, and the subtleties of the story and vocabulary might be lost in translation.

In my native language (French), as you describe it, there is no word for "average" (the technical and the common terms "moyenne" are exactly the same). Until your comment, in English, I assumed you could use "average" and "mean" interchangeably.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The algorithms don't matter but the fact that you can spend months learning them is an important skill. And you're missing what these tests are actually doing instead: Figuring out which people have already seen the problem at hand, and probably memorized all/some of it. The problem is that these interviewers will not pass you if you don't solve the problem almost perfectly in an amount of time that is way too smal…

>And you're missing what these tests are actually doing instead: Figuring out which people have already seen the problem at hand, and probably memorized all/some of it. That is literally my point. They are very much testing your ability to study for months on end. Study as in memorize. That is by design at this point and not a side-effect. If you aren't willing to show the ability to study successfully for months on…

I feel like that selects against innovative people. Memorizing problems that have already been solved is basically the definition of re-inventing the wheel.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#447
Nothing will change.

I think the problem often lies with the interviewers’s ego that results in this strange paradox where they’re trying to demonstrate their competence to the interviewee by way of technically “outwitting” them.

That way, in the event the interviewee is personable enough to get hired, the working dynamic is that much closer to being formed between the two, and chances are reduced that the interviewer is hiring a potential rival.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#448
I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire.

Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate evaluation of an engineer. Everything we currently do in technical interviews (whiteboard coding, pair programming, take home assignments, etc) are just attempts to recreate a working environment. If you are hiring a contractor first, you can do a light-weight interview process and then just bring them on and start working together.

As the dev being brought on you can prove your value before you negotiate your salary. You can also try out the company and manager before committing to an offer.

It's crazy, I know, but I think it would drive dev salaries up if it weren't so hard to change jobs because of the tech interview gauntlet we've created for ourselves.

[*] https://www.facet.net

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#449
post #377

People bomb, including good people. That is sadly part of the system. Once I had this candidate. Damn, I know my questions are deceptively simple on purpose, but he literally couldn't do anything. Not even a trivial brute force. Not even any related simple knowledge questions. Couldn't tell an average from a median. The only good thing I could write in the feedback was "seems to know some basic syntax". It was quite…

One trend I've noticed that is markedly different from when I started programming in 1998, is how dependent we've become to program via Google/StackExchange searches. I'm not sure I know how to write anything from scratch anymore, because I just search/read/alter/test. The breadth of what I work on is 100x wider than it used to be, and so I've become absolutely dependent on quickly reading docs, copying code found on…

>Maybe we should interview with small take-home tasks to be submitted with some write-ups to test how people research, reason, and write-up problems, rather than writing code on the spot on a whiteboard. ...but maybe that's just me.

I'm a huge fan of giving people tasks that somewhat resemble a real world problem they'd likely encounter or at least aligns categorically with their proclaimed resume feats and more importantly on top of that giving them the same environment they're comfortable working in on a daily basis which might be on a laptop in a quiet room from 6am to 10am in the morning.

However, I'm usually instantly met with the "oh well we don't want to expect too much of our interview candidates" mentality as if asking them to do a "take home" (rather than telling them to figure out how to take a day off of work for an onsite panel) is somehow grotesquely disrespecting their time and would make the company look bad if the broader community even got a whiff that it had been considered. I'm so confused. People easily identify that white-boarding interviews suck for more than just the interviewee. And yet any time a solution is proposed that involves doing something other than putting the candidate in a room in front of a whiteboard for an hour, it's shot down.

I've concluded it's a generational thing and the problem won't be fixed until we get a wave of hiring managers that weren't schooled on the Google interview process. But, also note it's a self perpetuating issue too so :shrug:.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#450

I just spent a huge amount of time interviewing for a new job. They put me through an absolute ringer — something like 10 total screens and interviews, over about a month. At the end, I started feeling a really negative association with them. I would never sleep well the night before the inevitable next interview and it just got to become a really tough thing. And most of the interviews were totally no-nonsense, no p…

I had a similar experience. They wanted me to do 4 phone interviews before even bringing me on-site, stretched over a month. Don't really understand the rationale for dragging it out so long.
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