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Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

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Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#441
post #385

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

> I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. > its product development has been based in China, and that some Zoom calls were accidentally routed through Chinese servers. Curious, did you background check every employee/contractor to make sure they are Chinese race free? Did you do every byte of your network traffic audit to make sure they are not Chinese IP routable? How often do you update your firewall rules?…

> Curious, did you background check every employee/contractor to make sure they are Chinese race free?

That's immoral, illegal, and silly; effectively nobody is doing this, and if most people found out about that, they would try to put a stop to it. The PRC is a state, that state does not have a monopoly on representing any race.

This is not a Chinese people problem, it's a CCP problem. Chinese people in the ROC don't do this sort of thing. 這不是華人的問題,這是中共的問題啊。中華民國的華人不這樣做。

> Do you audit every every byte of your network traffic to make sure it is not Chinese IP routable? How often do you update your firewall rules?

Yes, I operate servers and routers that simply do not route to or from PRC IP blocks. It's often the right thing to do, given that “reputable” server operators like Baidu seem to be the source of a huge proportion of the impersonation and spam, and often zero legitimate connections. When I get DMARC reports, more than half of the reports are PRC IPs impersonating my mail host, hopefully for reflection rather than full-on impersonation.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to think of examples... 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. 3. 1Password with Touch/Face ID can actually be easier these days than entering emails and passwords manually. 4. And more… Security doesn't alwa…

> 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. You have to install a plugin on every browser and device. That's not user friendly. Also some sites break and you have to understand why. > 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. You have to have an account on the app st…

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Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#443
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company tried to use Google Meet. With a group of around 16 people, Google Meet had all sorts of connection quality issues—people's voices cut out while talking, sounded garbled, etc. A week later, we tried Zoom instead. We could hear everyone clearly. We've used Zoom ever since. I had some say in the decision to continue with Zoom, and I feel kind of bad about choosing it, but it's hard to argue with the results.…

> Google Meet had all sorts of connection quality issues When was this? Google Meet has gotten a lot better in the last few weeks.

A little bit more than a few weeks ago when lock down was in full effect when everyone realized that products like Skype, line video, and Google meet etc had all had these massive head starts but were left to languish and were all actually awful when it actually matters.

The more I learn about zoom as a company the more I can't wait to delete it but all the comparable products have all been terrible in comparison.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to think of examples... 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. 3. 1Password with Touch/Face ID can actually be easier these days than entering emails and passwords manually. 4. And more… Security doesn't alwa…

> 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. You have to install a plugin on every browser and device. That's not user friendly. Also some sites break and you have to understand why. > 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. You have to have an account on the app st…

You're assuming that an extra step always implies a usability penalty, but that's not true.

"Usability can be described as the capacity of a system to provide a condition for its users to perform the tasks safely, effectively, and efficiently while enjoying the experience." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability)

Notice the presence of "safely" there. You should be penalizing the alternative in each of these examples for the non-zero risk of data breaches and getting pwned. Then we can have a more productive debate about which cost is greater.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#445
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going after bigots on your platform does not equal going after activists. Please do not intentionally confuse the two.

One man's activist is another man's bigot.

There is a world of difference between being for something and against something and you are being very disingenuous (read: trolling) to conflate the two, Mr. throwaway account

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#446
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc google also banned the installation of the zoom client on work devices.

To be honest, that's also because they probably want their employees to use one of their 37 different video-conferencing apps.

Not really, Google happily let its employees use competitor products. There's no real precedent.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#447

I wonder if we'll hear the "they're a private company, they can do what they want, it is only censorship if the government does it" routine. I remember about a decade ago when certain parties were so concerned with voices being silenced and "erasure." The same people are now cheering when Facebook, Twitter, and the like shut down certain kinds of speech, with great discretion as to how the "rules" are implemented. Th…

i notice you say “certain kinds of speech” instead of speech promoting violence and racism. im not aware of twitter et al banning any reasonable political activism.

They want to dump on platforms for taking action against hate speech and instigating violence because "someone else censored political activism". It's a disgusting point of view.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#448
post #413

I want to stop using zoom. But the experience is far higher quality than anything else I've used. Maybe part of that is the strong suggestion and herding towards using the desktop app and not the browser.

Try Google Meet. Different can of privacy worms, but at least they aren't connected so directly to China.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#449
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a big difference between routing an encrypted packet through China and decrypting that packet on a server located in China. Likewise, there’s a big difference between employing a Chinese national in the US and having a large part of you engineering organization operate from within China.

> having a large part of you engineering organization operate from within China Shockingly, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, IBM, Redhat, Cisco all have engineering team in mainland China. Do a job list search please. > decrypting that packet on a server located in China In your infrastructure setup, for hostnames in a cluster, how do you separate China servers and non-China servers? Do you put a subdomain or something?…

> In your infrastructure setup, for hostnames in a cluster, how do you separate China servers and non-China servers? Do you put a subdomain or something?

Yes, these are exactly the sorts of things one does. The PRC is so distinct in terms of legal norms that servers hosted there need to be treated differently. If PRC would adhere to the legal norms of most of the rest of the world, and stop trying to start a cold war with the U.S, this would not be necessary.

> And how do you link user's nationality to which server they are supposed to connect to?

It's not so much about nationality, but about jurisdiction. For calls where no participants' connections originate from a PRC IP block, don't use the PRC infrastructure. For calls where at least one connection originates from the PRC, terminate the call wherever meets the legal requirements (that PRC participant may have special obligations to their government) and is technically convenient. It's not really that hard.

> What if a US citizen joins a mainland Chinese hosted meeting? Is it wrong for Zoom to decrypt packets in China?

Again, it is not a matter of citizenship, but of jurisdiction. If the call is hosted in PRC, that's not even a question; if PLA asks, you must decrypt the packets on the host, or at least provide keys.

In each case, you bring up nationality or citizenship, but when it comes to these scenarios, these are not relevant. Chinese nationals legally present in U.S. jurisdiction have most of the same rights as U.S. citizens, and all of the same legal obligations. In terms of obligations, the same is true in PRC: if you are present in PRC, you are obligated to follow the PRC's law, whether or not you are a national.

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