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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#441

Post by asabjorn »

jacobush wrote: post #251
jb775 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what I said. I'm saying that coronavirus is being listed as the primary cause of death in bad-faith. According to the CDC guidelines[1]: In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” My concl…

So you are saying every doctor reading that instruction is in bad faith writing "probable" when in fact, they don't actually think it's probable? Or do say all doctors writing "probable" are actually deluded?

He is saying that as Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says [1] the government classify all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause.

This is due to a highly unusual CDC guideline that stipulates this, and it may mask collateral deaths due to lockdown measures that could be avoided if we like normal looked for the true cause.

The reason why this is relevant is that an overwhelming percentage of coronavirus deaths also had other serious health conditions.

[1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#442

Post by aisengard »

Press2forEN wrote: post #388
mehrdadn wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

I'd posit it's the business owners who feel like they want to earn a living, not a small number of them by forcing their employees to come to work and create value for them. The vast majority of people in the US don't own a business, they work for a wage, or are living off retirement. I'd be interested to see the breakdown of people who don't support the lockdown vs the people who own a business that's been closed. I'd imagine there would be a strong corollary.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#443

Post by hef19898 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

It is not just the US. Strange enough, around the same time (give or take a couple of days), the protests started in the US, people in germany started protesting as well. Turned weird rather quickly, all the common conspiracy theories are present. Over here, this stuff is pushed by "celebrities" online, mostly from the fringe. Left and right wing nuts seem to agree. There were also court challenges.

We also see various politicians to take up opposite positions regarding restrictions. Mainly between two state prime ministers, Söder in Bavaria and Laschet in NRW. The former pushed restrictions hard early on, the latter alsways took the approach. Both want to become chancellor during the next elecetions. Söder profited in popularity from his restrictions, he changed course, to a degree, as soon as public opinion started to "shift". At least the loud part of public opinion.

Similarities between the US and Germany, I see are

a) federalism, making central ction more difficult

b) upcoming election making Covid-19 as much a political question as it is a medical and economic one

c) multiple, opposing politians (Germany, even from the same party) or parties (US), aggravating point b)

As much as I hope that we can lift restrictions, I have the feeling that we might regret it. Hope I'm wrong.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#444

Post by unethical_ban »

Press2forEN wrote: post #388
mehrdadn wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

Many people in the US want to be alive rather than dead. We're not talking perma-welfare for all non-billionaires.

I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. I believe there is a correlation with open-mindedness.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#445

Post by aisengard »

apostacy wrote: post #389
mehrdadn wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're ranting or just upset at all this or at the fact that HNers commenting are on topics that you feel they're disconnected from (though I'm sorry about your family's situation), but your reply is quite incoherent. I can't reply to every point, but I can't even make sense of the fact that you're calling me out for being so certain that reopening proposal comes with a lot of... un certainty in givin…

The cost of the shelter in place order is doing more harm than good. When the dust settles, I am convinced that more people will have died as a result. I'm on pretty solid ground here. The costs of poverty and economic collapse are arguably better researched than pandemics. And it is hard not to be disgusted by the attitude of many people on HN, who are least affected by this. Having some relatives in that part of th…

The shelter in place order mostly hits around the margins. Most people are staying home on their own volition - government orders notwithstanding. I started staying home a few weeks before the official lockdown went into effect.

The economy was going to collapse no matter what - that's not because of government giving an order to stay home, it's because the reality is that the virus infects everyone and leads to horrific health deterioration. Furthermore, our government has provided our economy nearly zero safety net to account for something like this.

Pandemics are scary. Suffering severe health deterioration or maybe even dying are existentially scary. No amount of shutting our ears and screaming "HOAX!" is going to change how most people view the risk - it only increases the chaos and lengthens the crisis. You want the economy to come back? Then figure out how to make people feel safe, which means getting rid of the virus, because no amount of weird charts or saying "it's just the flu" is going to work now that people realize how bad it really is. Ignoring the problem isn't a solution.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#446

Post by mehrdadn »

unethical_ban wrote: post #444
Press2forEN wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes back to the culture point OP made. Many people in the US want to earn a living, not be provided a living.

Many people in the US want to be alive rather than dead. We're not talking perma-welfare for all non-billionaires. I can't recall meeting many people who get substantially more conservative with age, but I do know many who shift more liberal. I believe there is a correlation with open-mindedness.

Relevant: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889?mob...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#447

Post by rayiner »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #408
rayiner wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd much rather live in Sweden or Germany Sweden never closed down, and Germany is in the midst of reopening. As to the safety net—there is no evidence that safety net has made a difference. (I’m part, I suspect, because the Us already has a comprehensive safety net for the elderly population that is mainly affected by COVID-19). The death rate in the US, per 100,000 people, is well below that of Sweden. It’s also…

> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just…

For the American audience: the limits are 12 weeks in France, 14 weeks in Spain, and 24 weeks in the Netherlands.

For the European audience: the shortest abortion period that is currently in effect in the US is Mississippi’s at 20 weeks: https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg. Shorter ones have been proposed but have been stayed pending litigation. Most of the deep south is close to the Netherlands line at 22 weeks. Most of the blue states limit up to viability, which can be up to 28 weeks. 7 states have no limit whatsoever. (Note that I’m not taking a position in what’s right; I’m just describing how various countries have addressed a divisive issue.)

As to “conservative groups” being annoying—that makes it sound like something the majority agrees with but they just haven’t gotten around to updating the law. In fact, the dominant party in both France and Germany has opposed lengthening the current periods. The woman Angela Merkel hand-picked to be her successor as leader of the CDU is against abortion entirely, like many in the CDU. Merkel has maintained the status quo precisely as a compromise between her party and the more liberal parties in Germany.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#448

Post by blaser-waffle »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #397
cpwright wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows…

I grew up in Virginia, and any of the home schooled kids were hyper religious and profoundly ignorant.

I bumped into a few of them at a community college after I got out of the military. The USMC indoc'd me hard with the groupthink, and that took a while to get past, but I could at least do high school Trig and had basic history. I remember one girl who didn't believe the Holy Roman Empire existed and despite her extensively Christian background, didn't know a damn thing about the Crusades.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#449

Post by jb775 »

mgleason_3 wrote: post #165
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.

HN should require a reply in order to downvote, and downvoting should cause multiple lost points for the down-voter....and maybe down-votes should be publicly visible.

I come here primarily to read discussion and to provide my unfiltered critical thought....but what I'm seeing recently is petty downvoting with little discussion or replies.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#450

Post by 101404 »

ginko wrote: post #427
101404 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a look at their program.

Care to be any more specific? Last I checked Sweden has been ruled by the the Social Democrats for most of the 20th century, yet Sweden still has a working capitalist economy and more billionaires per capita than the United States.

Just like here in Germany, it is the ideology of the party that changed (a lot).

I've been a Social Democrat for over 30 years, that's why I left the social democratic party here.

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