MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#441

Post by jfkroo8 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

Because decades of education needed to be at a level for even considering an SAT is a poor mans normal.

SATs are one of the original “My parents bought me a better education.” filters our culture came up with.

You’re just defending what’s normal to you but the same concern has been raised over SATs.

Let’s not pretend you’ve stumbled upon a lynchpin we’d all overlooked.

People bending over to work for money not their own interests has enabled the overall problem you’re highlighting. Yep now there’s a lot of money out there to be used to by our way into shit!

Don’t be naive. You don’t want filters like this you need to rethink your life and who you’re giving your agency to.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#442

Post by adchari » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #311

A comment section of people who didn't read the article lol. They explicitly said they consider SAT to be a predictive metric of success at MIT. This is not critical of SAT, only SAT subject tests. While they weren't explicit about why SAT subject tests won't be accepted, this may be a clue: > No: in fairness to all applicants, we won’t consider them for anyone. We think it would be unfair to consider scores only fro…

Cost for tests can be waived using exam vouchers, even for the subject tests. I think the actual factor would be preparation time/cost of other resources, which can be either really small or thousands of dollars for a test prep course.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#443

Post by adchari » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #236

thedance wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only criteria for English should be abilities at least as good as the worst teaching assistant in the undergraduate college. This is the lowest possible standard of English language proficiency. """ WHEN Mark W. Eichin showed up for his course in differential equations at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology this year, he found that his instructor was a Hindustani whose spoken English was ''almost incomprehe…

Wouldn't demanding English language abilities help to reduce instances of this in the future? Like if they're letting students graduate with language deficits then the chance of tutors/teachers/professors having less language ability than desirable would seem to go up?

The University of Illinois requires TOEFL and in person English language interviews before a TA or professor from a foreign country is allowed to teach any section. Students still face similar issues, due to accents and the fact that fluency in a language guarantees that you can convey an idea, not that you can engage listeners and use idioms which translate well.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#444

Post by thatiscool » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 6:03 PM UTC

pulisse wrote: post #182

trentnix wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. The less objective their evaluations are, the easier it will be to hide the cronyism, bribery, and racial bias. Going to be a lot easier to discriminate against Asian kids when you don’t have to notice their test scores are better than the kids you admitted.

MIT isn't eliminating the SAT. They're not considering SAT subject tests, which are analogous to AP tests (which latter MIT will continue to consider).

today they eliminate SAT subject test, tomorrow MIT will eliminate regulart SAT test

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#445

Post by downerending » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #91

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

What you call a "smooth-talker" is what someone else would call an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way and who is comfortable making connections with others. Perhaps if this was the standard college admissions used, public schools would have more incentive to educate students as functional humans rather than test-taking drones.

Sure. But in the end I'd rather have my bridges designed by people that are really good at math.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#446

Post by jacobmiske » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

I am a class of 2020 MIT student. Taking these tests was sort of awkward in my case. My high school allowed me to take the ACT once for free. I did not have to take SAT Subject Tests for any of my other college applications. I am happy with Stu's decision here. I can speak more on my experience if people would like me to do so.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#447

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:12 PM UTC

MiroF wrote: post #438

WalterBright wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applied to 10 ivy league universities, and was accepted by 3. It's reasonable to suppose that if MIT gave a +1 for legacy admits, I would have gotten the nod.

that is not a reasonable assumption at all - it's a dice roll regardless. admission at one good school doesn't guarantee admission at another, even if you have legacy. (and is also highly dependent on which Ivies we're talking about - not all Ivies are HYP, which are more on par with MIT)

> that is not a reasonable assumption at all - it's a dice roll regardless. admission at one good school doesn't guarantee admission at another

Saying "reasonable assumption" is not at all saying "guaranteed". Please stick to discussing ideas and not deliberately misinterpreting plain language.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#448

Post by chad_strategic » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #415

chad_strategic wrote: post #304

I'm sure that I will get in trouble for this but... The SAT/ACT system is corrupt. It's plain an simple. Follow the money. It's as simple as that. The root of most issues involve simple economics. (Maybe a little broad of a statement, so take it with a grain of salt, but certainly applies in this case.) The tests are built on revenue from the taking the tests and industry selling you prep material. I don't have time…

How can you be sure of something that you cannot prove?

I said I couldn't prove it.

If I was an investigative journalist and or I had significant amount of time, then I would look into it.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#449

Post by cognitive_1337 » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

Melting_Harps wrote: post #429

cogntive_elite wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top schools are more than fairly niche, especialy at the very top of the very top like MIT, which is extremeley niche. Source: I was a poor kid who got into UC Berkeley based largely on my SAT II scores. Any poor kid seriously considering applying to MIT or Cal is high information enough to be aware SAT IIs exist. Do ya'll understand how patronizing and insulting this bigotry of low expectations is to brilliant trail…

> PS I'm rich and early retired now thanks to (Bitcoin and) setting/enforcing high standards for myself, not lowered expectations. Awesome! > My gifts are largely verbal, so the Writing subject test was my once-in-a-lifetime to demonstrate objective superiority to my peer group, regardless of income and race. Same, though I don't really consider skills like oratory to be a gift; rather I think it's something you simp…

>wouldn't you have preferred to have your admission be based on your ability to have positively contributed to...

Uni-bound HS kids don't usually know which field(s) they will study, hence the S.A.T. is a Test for generic Scholastic Aptitude using general intelligence metrics (math+verbal) as a proxy. HS me intended to be a cyberlaw lawyer at Wilson Sonsini but wound up in cogsci, a field HS me wasn't even aware existed! There was NO WAY my admission could have been based on my eventual contributions to cogsci.

Academic achievement was my ticket out of the trailer park so I always took it seriously, starting in middle school when I devoured a book called 999 Words You Need To Know For The SAT. I didn't "purposely forget 85% of it" after the tests, I still know them all and never stopped building on that foundation, serving Master Satoshi well while fighting against the BCashers in the trenches of the Blockchain Wars.

Bitcoin's meritocracy is an extension of the hacker ethos (on the internet no one knows your a dog...etc) and yes, I love it. I idolize Back and adore trollish Todd, and while Amir's cringe black flag left-wing anarchism is tedious it's forgivable given the obvious sincerity.

If your Uni experience was "petty politicking non-sense" SFYL, but that's on you. Should have transferred and done STEM at a different/better institution.

I did 3 years then dropped out for financial reasons. The degree meant nothing to me; the Promethean knowledge base and powerful lifelong social network are what I wanted. But I'll always be an academic at heart.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#450

Post by cognitive_1337 » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

mygo wrote: post #410

cogntive_elite wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top schools are more than fairly niche, especialy at the very top of the very top like MIT, which is extremeley niche. Source: I was a poor kid who got into UC Berkeley based largely on my SAT II scores. Any poor kid seriously considering applying to MIT or Cal is high information enough to be aware SAT IIs exist. Do ya'll understand how patronizing and insulting this bigotry of low expectations is to brilliant trail…

> I was a poor kid who got into UC Berkeley based largely on my SAT II scores. So did the admissions officer mail you a letter that said “congrats! Based largely on your SAT II scores, you’ve gotten in!” If not, what enables you to discount the possibility that you still would have gotten in without the subject test?

My SAT IIs were obviously vital to the package presented to the admissions committee because I lacked two key things critical to UC's usual stringent paradigm. One, my GPA was below Cal's 4.0+ standards. Two, I didn't take a single AP test (Dad's attitute towards APs was the same as Driving School: "It was free when I was in HS so I'm not gonna pay for that").

I approached getting into Cal FROM OUT OF STATE like a hacker: telling the system what it wants/expects to hear. That entailed a deep dive on how admissions officers think and weigh applications. Every single trade-off I made in HS was in light of that strategy. Job or heavy extra-curriculars? I'll just be broke and stack trophies. AP Econ/English/Bio or Debate? I'll suffer in Honors/Regulars and stack moar trophies. Dating or academic decathalon? Same. Prom or debate tournament? Ditto.