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Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

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Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those apps that provide end-to-end encryption are a problem Are they though? There will always be a means to communicate without surveillance. Backdooring encryption is fundamentally incompatible with privacy, and will be abused - at scale. For any real cases, the security services have a multitude of other ways of getting the information they need regardless - for example, they could gaining physical access to the…

> Backdooring encryption is fundamentally incompatible with privacy, That's a very bold claim. Lawful wiretapping exists because it is accepted (and reasonable) that privacy should stop in specific circumstances, e.g. a criminal investigation. As I wrote before seeing this in black or white is naive. Wiretapping is useful for society. The key is to have proper oversight. By the way, to lawfully wiretap a phone the au…

You don't understand. Encryption is necessary because on the internet, there is no distance. Any web service today must be built with the knowledge that everyone, everywhere is attacking it all the time. The only defense against that kind of attack is an encryption that nobody can break.

When a weakness is introduced into that defense, even if it's a secret key held only by trusted governments and only (they promise) to be used in emergencies, that key is a method of attack that anyone, anywhere can use against everyone. The only defense is that the secret key remain secret, and there are an endless number of ways it could be comprimised, ranging from human error, phishing, or plain old brute forcing. A single key for all Whatsapp conversations is a valuable enough prize for criminals all over the world to invest serious money in custom hardware to crack it.

Currently, encryption schemes like Whatsapp's rely on generation of new keys for every message, making the value of attacking any one message limited. Without this defense, Whatsapp will be cracked, sooner or later. And once someone publicly reveals that key, every single message sent before that point becomes compromised. Maybe even publicly exposed. Would you be okay with that? Exposing your private message history to the internet because governments wanted to snoop?

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlawing AES will be difficult since it is embedded into P CPUs.

That's assuming AES is safe.

AES is far and away the most heavily scrutinized encryption algorithm in history. Of course that doesn't make it flawless, but the level of genius that the authors would need to hide a backdoor in it for all these years boggles the mind.

The implementation of AES in popular CPUs? Yeah, who knows.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but you can't outlaw the maths. There's nothing stopping anyone from rolling their own encryption, using well documented algorithms. You'd need to literally outlaw Wikipedia. Hell, even one-time-pads could still be used by truly motivated bad actors that wanted to communicate securely.

They can make it so if they spot you using it (for other than communication with approved banks and retailers and such, maybe), that's instantly something they can charge you with. Then go after a few people who're spotted using it on the Internet by traffic sniffing, meaning the only folks left using it are cranks and actual bad guys.

I can encode hidden meaningd in poetry. If you outlaw poetry, our US experiment is over.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#444
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keeping safe argument from government is indeed preposterous. As if that was their mission to keep us safe. Why are they allowing our nature to be destroyed in favor of money/economy? This years heatwaves killed many thousands of people in Europe only, some estimates are in the tens of thousands. This is real deaths in 1 year, not because of terrorist attacks, no fucking backdoor will stop this. And what are they…

>They are the only ones who can change things by law, not me. I had this thought yesterday as I read about several prominent politicians in Canada, including the prime minister, actively participating in the climate 'protests' that occurred yesterday. Who were they out there protesting? Themselves? They're the ones with the power to change things. Why were they outside with signs instead of in their offices doing som…

Well we know these actions look good from a public relations point of view. We only need ask if they had any other motivations or if it was only for PR.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in London.It has already gone way beyond of what Orwell could have ever imagined. However,despite of all the surveillance, London is the crime capital of the world.This is probably the best place for criminals,as unless you pull a machine gun on a crowd,not much will be investigated.

There's some evidence to suggest that more policing leads to more crime (drops in policing are correlated with a lower # of major crimes). If you're going to be hassled by police anyway, why not go large? Hence the old proverb 'might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.'

We don't necessarily need more police on the streets ( depends on the area,as always), however there's a genuine need for more,who can solve cases.I've got endless list of examples, including my own situations,where police do either nothing,because the matter is deemed not serious enough or simply don't have resources to deal with it,unless it's an attempt to murder, political threats or terrorism.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those apps that provide end-to-end encryption are a problem Are they though? There will always be a means to communicate without surveillance. Backdooring encryption is fundamentally incompatible with privacy, and will be abused - at scale. For any real cases, the security services have a multitude of other ways of getting the information they need regardless - for example, they could gaining physical access to the…

> Backdooring encryption is fundamentally incompatible with privacy, That's a very bold claim. Lawful wiretapping exists because it is accepted (and reasonable) that privacy should stop in specific circumstances, e.g. a criminal investigation. As I wrote before seeing this in black or white is naive. Wiretapping is useful for society. The key is to have proper oversight. By the way, to lawfully wiretap a phone the au…

> The key is to have proper oversight.

Yes, but if you make it too easy, oversight fails or is worked around with legalese, and the powers are abused at scale.

> Bugging a phone really means illegal/covert operations these days

My view here is that it should be difficult - the security services should only be able to intercept someone's communications with a legally obtained warrant to do so (the oversight you mentioned); then powers are far more likely to only be used where the is a credible threat.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will not. We are completely opposed to this. Backdoors are a horrible idea and any government who suggests them is proposing weakening the security and privacy of everyone.

As much as would like to believe all promises coming from corporate execs - Facebook has been caught lying more than enough. So thanks for trying, but I have uninstalled WhatsApp and I'm happy with Threema.

Have you considered Riot (Matrix) or Signal? Both are open source so it's possible to verify claims made on their website, which is a lot less possible with proprietary software like Threema.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if the lawbreaking is enabled by a loophole, as in this case. Closing the loophole may not be enough, but it should be the first priority.

It's important but you need to consider the situation where the government is corrupt. The Us is about to impeach the President; and the two factions in government are each accusing the other of corruption, albeit using wildly different criteria.

So what? Does the fact that the current adminstration is criminal mean that legal loopholes are meaningless and that closing them helps nothing?
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