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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#441

Post by chaostheory »

Richard_East wrote: post #332
LoSboccacc wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's more of a taste problem than a budget problem, plenty games go low fi and are amusing both to play and look at, i.e. Celeste

Specifically its more of an art direction problem. If you have an artist with decent technical skills, enough time, and an excellent art director, you can still achieve great results. Eventually that Artist will learn and become better in what they independently produce. Plus, the art is visible through a camera, and with post-processing and FX - which are easily controlled or influenced by that same art director. Ju…

Your game looks great, and so do many other indie games with low budgets like Stardew Valley and Axiom Verge to name just a few examples, even though there are many more.

Vogel just isn't willing to put in time and money into visuals because it's probably a combination of it 1. not being a priority for him and 2. lacking the skill for visual design (not necessarily implementing it, but just having an eye for it) which is probably also due to the point #1

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#442

Post by thecupisblue »

ebg13 wrote: post #141

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill thinking to myself "Holy shit. That's the Spiderweb software guy. I've played every single one of his games, EVERY SINGLE ONE, and loved all of them." The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be to make wonderful story-driven RPGs.

Me too! If it wasn't for the Avernum series, I probably wouldn't be speaking english that well or posting here right now!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#443

Post by AmericanChopper »

Goronmon wrote: post #214

I wonder what the sentiment would be if the situation was reversed. Here we have a developer effectively looking to pay below market rates for artists, and then unsurprisingly not finding many good artists willing to do that long term. Not a judgment on my part, just saying that he's looking to keep the art budget to an absolute minimum. Instead if it was an artist defending his choice to make relatively simple games…

I don’t think he is looking to pay below market rates. He seems to have realised that if he wants to develop his product to that level, he’d have to massively grow his business, something he says he’s not interested in doing. He says he’s just interested in operating a company that pays his bills. He’s found an audience for his product the way it is.

The question he seems to be answering is “why don’t you try and grow your company”, with his answer being “because I’m happy with the way it is”.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#444

Post by [deleted] »

close04 wrote: post #359
nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

The problem isn't going into defense, it's having an acidic attitude towards it: > What fascinates me here is that the guy seems to think he is telling me news. Like, I'm smart enough to keep a software company running for 25 years, but I am unable to notice qualities in my games that are instantly obvious to Joe Q. Rando. Imagine that being said in any other context to realize how uncalled for such an attitude is an…

[deleted]

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#445

Post by goostavos »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

Grrrr! People who like things I don't like are dumb and confused!

Pixel art is just a style like any other. I like it for the same reason people like pointillism or [insert art style here]. A lot of interesting art, music, and creativity in general stems from self-imposed arbitrary constraints. It's super lazy thinking to blanket disregard an entire sub-genre as people who are either confused about what it "should" look like given some viewing conditions, or simply blinded by nostalgia.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#446

Post by EpicEng »

nomel wrote: post #439
EpicEng wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finding talented, reliable, reasonably priced freelancers is HARD He wants the talent, but he finds talented artists to demand an unreasonable amount of money. To me it's him that comes off as unreasonable.

I think you're ignoring his statements about his business model, game audience, ROI for graphic's improvement, etc.

No I'm not. In fact, that just supports my point; he doesn't want to spend much on design because it won't make him more money, but he wants "talented and dependable" designers. You know that old "pick two" saying? Also, something about cake comes to mind.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#447

Post by eropple »

eridius wrote: post #431
eropple wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Exile I's graphics look pretty good, yeah. For me, it's the Exile III version of the Realmz graphics, followed by the original Exile I graphics. (The backported Exile III graphics to Exile I and II look weird to me.) His newer background/tile graphics look just fine to me too, though. I built a couple full-tileset mods for Blades of Exile back in the day. You can do it with the new Avernum engine too. Of cour…

> the Exile III version of the Realmz graphics What do you mean by this? I miss Realmz¹, and until today didn't realize that the developer of Realmz was also the publisher of the Exile series. But I still can't figure out what "the Exile III version of the Realmz" graphics is referring to. ¹My ringtone is actually the Realmz outdoor theme.

Spiderweb Software and the Realmz folks collaborated to buy an art set, which became the Exile III graphics (and fans kinda just call them "the Realmz graphics"). They were then (somewhat) modified and backported to Exile I and II in ways that didn't always work great, which became the Exile I/II versions of those graphics.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#448

Post by chipotle_coyote »

vkou wrote: post #424
close04 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't going into defense, it's having an acidic attitude towards it: > What fascinates me here is that the guy seems to think he is telling me news. Like, I'm smart enough to keep a software company running for 25 years, but I am unable to notice qualities in my games that are instantly obvious to Joe Q. Rando. Imagine that being said in any other context to realize how uncalled for such an attitude is an…

But that is pretty much exactly how Apple responds to criticism of their most asinine product decisions. They double down on them. (And occasionally, years later, quietly come to their senses)

I don't see "doubling down" as analogous to "responding acidly," and I'd actually say that Apple's most common response to criticism isn't "doubling down" as much as "not officially responding at all." You may find their lack of apology for arguably dubious design decisions or out-and-out product flaws to be annoying, and I get it, but it's not as if the tech industry is chock-full of counterexamples.

In any case, the OP's argument for "why all of our games look like crap" is "we're not prioritizing the resources to put into consistent, polished aesthetics." I'm going to bet that if you made a consensus list of the most common complaints with Apple over the last ~5 years, "they just don't pay enough attention to how things look" would not be near the top.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#449

Post by Kuraj »

anaphor wrote: post #320
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

I think the pixel art in Thimbleweed Park looks fantastic https://thimbleweedpark.com/

I'm really excited for Heart Forth, Alicia, but it doesn't look like it's coming out anytime soon.

http://www.alonsomartin.mx/hfa/

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#450

Post by BirdieNZ »

ebg13 wrote: post #141

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill thinking to myself "Holy shit. That's the Spiderweb software guy. I've played every single one of his games, EVERY SINGLE ONE, and loved all of them." The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be to make wonderful story-driven RPGs.

I remember playing Exile: Escape from the Pit. Great game, the graphics didn't matter because the story was what was important.
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