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US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

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Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#441

Post by Const-me »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #241
MisterTea wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

I installed encoder knobs to emulate potentiometers There's really no need to force this decision to go in either direction. Ever since I first heard of capacitive multitouch, going back to the timeframe before the first iPhone announcement, I've been waiting for someone to build 'stick-on' encoder knobs that the touchscreen controller can read. These would simply take the form of a knob with a metal leaf or other po…

I’m not sure touch screens have sufficient resolution.

Check this: http://huyle.de/2019/02/12/accessing-capacitive-images/ As you see, the sensor elements are huge, 4×4mm each, i.e. there’re only 15×27 sensors for the complete touch screen. On top of that, there’s high amount of noise in the signal of each sensor.

The reasons why it works OK in practice, fingers have very predictable shape, also a lot of software involved on all levels of the stack. Touch screen firmware filters out sensor noise and generates touch points. Higher level GUI frameworks “snap“ touches to virtual buttons, some platforms go as far as making virtual keyboard buttons different sizes, depending on which virtual keys are expected to be clicked next, according to predictive input software i.e. dictionaries.

What you propose probably can be done, by using a finger-like object, but I don’t expect the resolution will be great. At least not in comparison with hardware turning knobs, even cheap ones can be make extremely precise. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_encoder and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_encoder for more info, both are used a lot in wide variety of applications. Old mice with a ball had 2 of them, the reason why ball mice sucked was not sensor precision, it was dirt accumulation, a minor issue for a knob.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#442

Post by bmurphy1976 »

_n_b_ wrote: post #179
bmurphy1976 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't cars have 2 batteries? One for starting the car, and the other for all the crap that tends to kill the battery when you most need it? Probably because it costs more money and nobody will pay for it. That's the best guess I have.

Some cars have do two batteries, one for start/stop and one for everything else. (For example, some Mercedes have these, Suzuki "mild hybrid" cars, etc.)

I know about the Mercedes but did not know about the Suzuki. My main point though is that this is not a feature in your bog standard Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Ford Fusion. I think it should be, it's a huge safety and convenience feature. That it is not in your average car implies it's probably too expensive for the utility it offers the average person.

Personally I solved the problem by buying a lithium ion car starter for both of our cars. Works great, but I really would prefer the cars just had some redundancy built in.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#443

Post by bmurphy1976 »

haser_au wrote: post #280
bmurphy1976 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't cars have 2 batteries? One for starting the car, and the other for all the crap that tends to kill the battery when you most need it? Probably because it costs more money and nobody will pay for it. That's the best guess I have.

It's an add-on you can choose for cars, if you want to. A lot of service vehicles in Australia have 2 batteries for this reason. 1 for the vehicle, the second for chargers (USB, DC, etc), routers, fridges, cameras, etc.

Not around here. I've never seen it offered for a non top of the line luxury vehicle.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#444

Post by ddingus »

mannykannot wrote: post #411
ddingus wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is all about haptic feedback, and low latency between action and outcome. You can twist virtually with good precision. But, what is much harder is the feel, state of the knob, particularly when it is released and then gripped again. Mechanically, the structure of the knob can take some energy input, and it serves as a mechanical pivot, or fulcrum, depending on how people use a knob. Without all those physical thin…

In addition, the essential ship controls must work in rough weather, so you want something you can grasp to keep your hand steady. So long as airplanes have human pilots, I do not suppose the physical stick, rudder pedals and throttles are going away.

Yes. And state comms. Where that input device is matters.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#445

Post by Kaibeezy »

MisterTea wrote: post #224
Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

What about the shiny metal throttle?

http://propsummit.com/upload/408/tt4.jpg

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#446

Post by NobodyNada »

Izkata wrote: post #434
magduf wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That galaxy-class saucer separation thing was honestly not a great idea, and it was somewhat annoying when they used it in the episodes. The problem with it is that only the "stardrive" section has warp capability, so what good is it to be able to separate except for using the saucer as a last-resort escape pod in case of warp engine failure? The saucer is simply too slow to go anywhere in a reasonable amount of time…

One of the reasons for that functionality I don't recall actually making it to an episode - tactical advantage in a fight. The rear section had increased maneuverability when separated, and it resulted in two targets for attackers, both of which could fire back.

IIRC they used a similar tactic in "The Best of Both Worlds."

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#447

Post by zepearl »

Just yesterday I downloaded a couple of kind-of-documentary-videos from Youtube about submarines, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTS3FYGhOc (the doc itself is not great but the resolution/detail of the video is good).

I was astonished to see that they have screens (touchscreens?) everywhere!

I was naive in this area and thought that at least submarines would rather have physical switches or at most something similar to the screens of jet fighters (e.g. http://falcon4.wdfiles.com/local--files/avionics%3Amfd/mfd_m... ) where any switch/option/selection is displayed at the border of the screen and mapped to a physical button on its rim, but that's apparently not the case.

I thought so because I thought that whoever uses the controls would like to have a physical feedback about switching a switch/button especially in a critical/stressful situation - but maybe they still get some kind of feedback (e.g. some external sound or vibration?)?

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#449

Post by exadeci »

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

"It's the future!"

A company I was working for used an old telnet ERP that couldn't handle the mouse so everything was keyboard only and users could move at blazingly fast speeds between the menus.

Then they asked me to make a website to help new users, honestly, I wished that they would have instead just tried to update/improve the Telenet experience or maybe let me add the same shortcuts on the web interface.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#450

Post by bigiain »

zeveb wrote: post #395
bigiain wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just generalised Monday morning cynicism... It happens with _everything_ else in this stupid industry, what're the chances of it not happening just the same when the tech industry targets the military industrial complex???

Principle of charity: don't attribute mistakes to malevolence. Unlike in business, military purchasing is, I think, generally run by people who were once users of the systems they were purchasing, and are not unlikely to rely on them again. Far more likely than, 'I don't care if the ensign standing watch on my next ship can do his job, this Mai Tai tastes great!' is 'wow, I see all these touch screens on TV shows, in…

Maybe. I have very little faith that sailors "who were once users of the systems" who've worked their way up inside the military to decision making roles have _any clue_ how evil and deceptive and persuasive the sales teams from companies like Adobe or Oracle or Palantir or $touchScreenVendorDeJour can be...
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