Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#441

Post by lurquer » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #401

lurquer wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more accurate term for what is 'required' is a Guild. Medicine and Law are the last two examples in the US. It is a crime to practice law or medicine without a license. And, for the most part, the amount of licenses dispensed each year is left up to the practitioners' professional association. In short, you'd want to make it illegal to program for pay (or to distribute free software) without being a member of the g…

Another example is the Professional Engineer (PE). Bridges don't just get designed and built. A PE is usually required to sign off that these structures are safe and usable. Little Fischer-Price playhouses aren't the same as the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Though not a guild in all but name, the PE acts just the same. In fact, there is guild-like behavior in a lot of professions, come to think of it.

There are several that are guild-like. For instance, in my state it is illegal to hold yourself out as providing 'accounting services' without being a CPA. Likewise, it is illegal to assist in the sale/purchase of real estate for a fee without being a broker/realtor (or a lawyer).

It's undoubtedly the same for engineering.

However, there may be a subtle difference... A non-accountant can certainly help with your books so long as they don't hold themselves out as an "accountant." And, a non-realtor can certainly help you find a house, so long as they aren't paid contingency related to the ultimate transaction. I think -- and I may be wrong -- a non-engineer can charge to design a treehouse for your... so long as he doesn't hold himself out as an engineer. (Obviously, when it comes to roads, permit-related structures, etc., a governmental agency may require a P.E.... but, that's a different set of requirements.)

But, one may not practice medicine EVEN IF one refrains from holding himself out as a doctor. And, one may not dispense legal advice EVEN IF it is clear to all involved that the person is not a lawyer.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#442

Post by manfredo » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

themoonbus wrote: post #291

ghaff wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to look any further than the film/TV industry in the US. There are any number of guilds with various rules and minimum pay scales, etc. It doesn't keep countless people from waiting tables in LA hoping for their big break.

The job of the guild / union isn't to give everyone a job who wants one, though. It's to ensure that people who have a job are treated fairly.

But the point is they often go beyond ensuring people are treated fairly, and artificially drive up wages by constraining the supply of labor. This is a very unfair system. It benefits those they have the privilege to get into the guild (which often entails having the right connections, and until the Civil Rights movement also had the requirement of "be White"), at the expense if those that don't get into the guild. It also drives up costs for consumers.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#443

Post by brucemoose » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

klohto wrote: post #116

brucemoose wrote: post #105

This seems all too often the case with development work in general. I see the same type of unreasonable expectations in devops. Maybe it's compounded by the software industry liking to hire young people with less experience but more free time. They may not yet have the soft skills to navigate unreasonable demands and give hard answers, and logistically a single person can more easily pull extra hours. I've found that…

This is objectively wrong. DevOps continues to be the best paying field to work in. This is also accommodated by the fact that employers do not hire inexperienced people to DevOps because you probably don’t want them screwing up the whole release pipeline. Look up latest SO survey results and you’ll see that DevOps is very nicely paid even across Europe.

Oh... But I wasn't talking about salary, and Junior DevOps is most definitely a thing.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#444

Post by paulcole » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #179

hannasanarion wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of countries where all employers are required to give certain notice, and you can't suddenly fire someone. It is outrageous that your ability to eat and pay rent can be taken away with zero notice in America.

> It is outrageous that your ability to eat and pay rent can be taken away with zero notice in America. Also your healthcare in most cases.

Not true. It's stupid expensive but you can use COBRA.

> Eligibility for COBRA. In general, employees who were previously actively enrolled in health insurance coverage for at least one day, but lost it due to a change from full-time to part-time employment or termination(both voluntary and involuntary), are eligible for COBRA

https://help.zenefits.com/COBRA/Understanding_COBRA/01_Emplo...

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#445

Post by manfredo » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #399

gridlockd wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. The idea that these people are entrapped is a bunch of nonsense. We're not talking about people that have zero alternatives besides scraping at the bottom of a barrel. We're talking about people that are already well-paid and would be even higher paid if…

>>Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. People's behaviors are informed by their upbringing and circumstances, most of which they have no control over. Studies show that people are deeply affected by those around them, and their role models (whether those…

The point is, these jobs still pay an average of over $90k year. They may come with serious hours but that's not unheard of in many white collar industries (e.g. finance, medicine, law). To turn around and call these people victims is really not valuable, and seriously degrades what it means to be a "victim" of labor practices. There are jobs that are a lot harder to do and pay a lot less that nobody bats an eye about.

The video game industry has been nothing but transparent about the working conditions, at least from what I've seen. Every game Dev I've talked to has been clear that working on X field in the game industry is going to be more stressful and less lucrative than applying the same skills elsewhere. The slogan in my CS department was that the game Dev industry is twice the pay for half the work.

While many do have fulfilling careers it was common sense to me and my peers that going into the game development industry was not worth it unless your passion seriously outweighs practical interests. Some people think they belong in that group and later find out that they misjudged their priorities. They made a life decision they regret but they are not victims. No more than my sister is a victim of biology because she studied biology and discovered after graduation she didn't like biology and changed to working in tech.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#446

Post by anm89 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

pslam wrote: post #353

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with lon…

I never understand this kind of black and white thinking. So I either have to believe that people are total victims of circumstance with no control over their own situations or my opinions are "appalling"?

The reality is that there are obviously unfair elements to how these industries are operating and it would be desirable to most people to figure out how to improve that situation. It's also a reality that at the end of the day people have a big incentive to understand the big choices they are making in their lives regardless of subjective fairness. Regardless of your moral position it certainly seems they have paid a price for entering the industry and they entered the industry on their own free will(I doubt many people are being coerced into video game dev through threats of violence, blackmail or extortion).

Like literally everything else, the truth lies in the grey area and it's not "appalling" to have other opinions.

The idea of being so unable to believe that there may be validity to an opinion you don't like is a whole lot more appalling in my opinion.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#447

Post by ggggtez » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

Funes- wrote: post #135

hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>If you ask someone from Spain or Germany about unions and attempt to explain why they're "evil" from the US perspective, I can guarantee you will be met with complete disbelief . How can you possibly guarantee (no less!) what someone, regardless of where they come from, will say about any subject? You cannot complain about generalizations and broad statements, as in here: >...a century of propaganda has convinced mo…

Are you arguing that most people don't think that poor people are lazy? In the context of this conversation, the poster is right about what most people believe.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/why-are-people...

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#448

Post by Agentlien » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

pslam wrote: post #353

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with lon…

I agree with this and think there's been a really good effort lately to shine a light at the problems. A good example are the articles by Jason Schreier of Kotaku.

However, I'd also like to add my own data point. I'm someone who grew up dreaming about developing games and taught myself programming as a kid, with the idea of spending my days as a game developer. However, after having heard so much bad stuff about the game industry and then experienced it first hand when doing a summer job at Starbreeze, I decided to stay away from the game industry after I got my Master's.

Nearly four years later, I ended up switching jobs and entering the video game industry (at an EA studio). I've been there for four years, now. Every week I actively turn down headhunters trying to recruit me for all manner of jobs outside of game development. A lot of things could, and should, be better in game development. But all in all, I still love making games and am much happier with my day to day job now than before becoming a game dev.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#449

Post by bsanr2 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

I don't think that's necessarily true. Sports are another passion-driven job thay many, many more people want to do than are able to. Unions are the answer, but not just because they're effective tools for equalizing relative leverage between labor and owners. It's because unionization engenders a self-respect for one's employment - "THIS job that I do in particular" - that forces cooperation from management. It helps in this analogy that athletes are bona fide top-of-the-class performers, but the success of unions in other creative areas, including ones involving only moderate skill, shows that this principle extends further than that.

When people leave for greener pastures, they take their experience with them. There is no one that knows the tricks management uses to squeeze working hours out of employees (often unjustly and unfruitfully). The real solution is to unionize and force management to weed out the incompetence that creates inefficiencies that crunch is used to correct. Contrary to popular belief, unionization has thr potential to increase overall expertise.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#450

Post by bsanr2 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #427

lacey wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

I'm not keen on how most professional photographers for these events don't point out they'll retain copyright on all shots. I know what that means, but they let their customers find out when they aren't allowed to get raw/negatives or prints from anyone else. I'll take a work for hire option, thanks, without the attitude that it's an art and they're above that.

Exploitation, then.