Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#441

Post by tchaffee » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

avivo wrote: post #410

It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now because it seems that discussions that get voted up tend to ignore or belittle their experiences—even if there may be lots of great points and perspectives mixed in. In fact, the only response I noticed explicitly from someone who identified as female was being d…

Despite the article stating in the beginning that "company officials acknowledged that it did not address whether women were hired at a lower pay grade than men with similar qualifications." Completely ignored by everyone jumping to conclusions and yelling "told you so". Tech still has a problem with sexism. It's getting better. But you're right that women aren't debating and fighting those battles in forums like this where the most vocal are those who insist no problem exists.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#442

Post by solidsnack9000 » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #371

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> areas with primarily male coworkers, and creepy bosses This describes basically every tech job I have ever had. Real life engineering woman here reporting in. In 2014 I joined a series B startup as engineer #15 and was the only woman in the office other than the admin; food delivery dudes often brought things to my desk, assuming I must be the office mother. When I was late to work one day after being groped by a s…

Whatever unfair advantages you think your women colleagues have, unless you are black or latinx, it is unlikely you will ever experience the feelings of isolation and otherness that most women deal with throughout their tech careers.

Are these two things mutually exclusive? Women could both have the advantages outlined by OP and feel more isolated.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#443

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #418

maxxxxx wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what? For pay transparency look at Congress staffers, lot of state employees, a lot of CEOs, the military or some tech companies. For the second point I think it's pretty well known that markets can only properly function if all participants have the relevant information.

> For the second point I think it's pretty well known that markets can only properly function if all participants have the relevant information. So the markets have been improperly functioning, this entire time, because they didn't have the relevant information...?

Yes, the salary market is not functioning properly because one side has vastly more information than the other side.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#444

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #417

chc wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let me give you an example outcome and maybe you can explain to me how the third possibility applies in a way that is meaningfully distinct from the first two. Outcome: The women working as programmers at FooSoft make on average 10% less than the men working there. Possible reasons: 1. Lack of opportunity (e.g. people in power at FooSoft have bias against them makes it harder for them to have their contributions…

Let's be specific and replace FooSoft with Google. A quick search suggests that only 20% of programmers in general are female, but 30% of Google programmers are female. I'm not certain these numbers are accurate, but if they are, female programmers are over represented at Google. That would mean Google hired a greater percentage of female programmers than male programmers. That is, if Google hired the top 0.1% of mal…

A quick search suggests that only 20% of programmers in general are female, but 30% of Google programmers are female. I'm not certain these numbers are accurate, but if they are, female programmers are over represented at Google.

Going by the "logic" of outcomes being the "only holistic measure" this would indicate that Google is biased against male programmers within the context of the pool of available candidates. Yet if we change the scope of our consideration to that of the general population, Google would be biased against females.

Seems like the "only holistic measure" has some kind of issue with logical consistency. One has to be careful with how the population sample relates to the specific pipeline of available candidates. If one isn't careful, then the interpretation of the numbers might as well be fiction. You can't just stop at, "Does it match the general population? No? Then BIAS!"

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#445

Post by avivo » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #429

avivo wrote: post #410

It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now because it seems that discussions that get voted up tend to ignore or belittle their experiences—even if there may be lots of great points and perspectives mixed in. In fact, the only response I noticed explicitly from someone who identified as female was being d…

> accurate opinions You can have an accurate or inaccurate belief on a question of fact, but “accuracy” is not a measure that applies to matters of opinion.

Whoops. Good catch. Edited to make more sense.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#446

Post by tchaffee » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

Google is being sued by the government for under paying women. This result, which is based on some objective and some subjective criteria sure does come at a convenient time for the company.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#447

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #433

leereeves wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be specific and replace FooSoft with Google. A quick search suggests that only 20% of programmers in general are female, but 30% of Google programmers are female. I'm not certain these numbers are accurate, but if they are, female programmers are over represented at Google. That would mean Google hired a greater percentage of female programmers than male programmers. That is, if Google hired the top 0.1% of mal…

Let me get this straight: When women are hired less, it's because they're simply not interested. But when men are hired less, it's because they're being discriminated against? I think my hypothesis is simpler: - Women are discriminated against in the industry as a whole - Google actively discriminates in favor of women It's discrimination both times.

Women are discriminated against in the industry as a whole

I would expect in 2019, that the industry as a whole discriminates in favor of women, but I'm just a layperson when it comes to that. Do you have citations?

- Google actively discriminates in favor of women

It's discrimination both times.

I agree.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#448

Post by romwell » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #374

lazyasciiart wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has exactly such a policy.

Wow, indeed they do. [1] Do any other companies? The original comment indicated that such policies were not common at software companies, but Amazon is obviously a software company... 1: https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/amazon-parenta...

That's the point — most don't, and most men don't seem to understand why it's a problem (your comment above is not atypical).

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#449

Post by DenisM » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

esarbe wrote: post #285

CryoLogic wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not being down-voted because it's not a valid discussion point, but instead probably just because HN has a very liberal audience. Even the most educated are still capable of bias, and many here do not like the opinion that it is possible that women differ from men in any significant ways. Don't take the down-votes too personally. As long as you are posting constructive feedback with some evidence to your hypothe…

I don't take the downvotes personally (it's not my post, after all) but it makes me rather curious. I think it strange that a liberal audience would dispute the fact that there are differences between men and women, even significant differences.

You're mistaking noise for signal. Even the most innocent comments get down-voted in a random drive-by on occasion; they usually recover.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#450

Post by HeroOfAges » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #371

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> areas with primarily male coworkers, and creepy bosses This describes basically every tech job I have ever had. Real life engineering woman here reporting in. In 2014 I joined a series B startup as engineer #15 and was the only woman in the office other than the admin; food delivery dudes often brought things to my desk, assuming I must be the office mother. When I was late to work one day after being groped by a s…

> Men, especially clients, often forgot my name. E.g. Janice vs Janet vs Jan (none of these my real name, but you get the idea. The point is that I wasn't important enough to these men to remember.)

Are you aware this kind of thing happens to everyone? Do you expect people to remember your name just because you're a woman? Or would you rather they remembered your name because you've accomplished something beyond the ordinary? I'm a black male, by the way.