Bullshit Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#441

Post by L_Rahman » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

MadcapJake wrote: post #439

normalhuman wrote: post #65

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

> This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of boredom and meaninglessness. Such an interesting moment that we find ourselves in: Humans have taken over the planet and are upset that daily lives now revolve around trite and petty bs rather than predators, scarcity and violence.

No we're upset that we can't cut out the trite and petty bs and be free to make ourselves happy while not worrying about predators, scarcity and violence.

I find these arguments in defense of the existing system to to be the actually trite thing because it reveals an inability to truly look at the system at large and ask what outcomes we want and instead mounts a defense of it as is.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#442

Post by slezakattack » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

pastor_elm wrote: post #375

jillesvangurp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse, basically students are taking loans to pay for this. This requires even more admin work so they hire even more administrators.

This is not true, at least for schools like Stanford. They offer free tuition if your family income is under 125K, free room and board if under 65K. They also claim 77% of students graduate with no debt[0] [0} https://money.cnn.com/2015/04/01/pf/college/stanford-financi...

But what part of that 77% represent the students receiving free tuition based on the 125k family income? I would think that 77% is also lumping students who a) have a free ride from scholarships, academic and/or sports. b) have the financial means to pay their way through.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#443

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #434

TeMPOraL wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, bullshit jobs may exist as loops that can be hard to spot if they're multi-step. Department A generates work for department B, which generates work for department C, which - after couple more steps - generates work for department A. Second, "bullshit" in "bullshit jobs" doesn't mean useless from market's short-sighted POV. A competitive market is prone to formation of negative-sum games between companies, and fu…

The external point of view is dubiously helpful. Lions eat antelope; when they die their bodies become grass; the antelope eat the grass. Suppose they all agreed not to do this.

Antelope eat grass and breed. If they eat faster than the grass can regrow, they starve and die, and their bodies become grass.

Death through starvation is unpleasant. Suppose they could agree to breed less, as to not expand beyond carrying capacity of the place they live in. They would lead a happier life.

Point being, some feedback-driven systems are good, and some are bad.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#444

Post by ci5er » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #308

bena wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's break it down to something simple: I have $3, you have $1. Is it fair that I give you $1 so we both have $2? Is that rational? Now let's say that you work 3 hours a day and I work 1 hour. Now what's fair? You're working three times longer than me, but I had three times as much money to start with. Would fair actually be if I gave you $2 instead? That way our cash is on par with our hourly work. Does that seem r…

Literally zero percent of the economy works like this in reality.

Some people do not start out with different starting conditions? Some people are not more productive than others?

In what way are varying starting conditions and varying productivity levels (cost structures) not realistic?

If I were to guess, GPs point is that post-hoc redistribution is not fair (or can not be made to be fair?). Do you disagree with this conclusion?

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#445

Post by Notorious_BLT » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

Chathamization wrote: post #410

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it would be. I think if everyone stopped advertising unit sales would crash. Coke vs Pepsi is much less of a thing than the constant reinforcement that you would really, really enjoy one or the other right now. The constant reinforcement drives absolute sales, not just relative market share. I think the problem is more that a lot of heavily advertised products are incredibly harmful to personal and envi…

> It's not just about bullshit jobs but about bullshit consumption, and the curious moral frameworks that support it. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Many jobs seem to have a net negative value for society - soda, highly processed food, credit cards, car dealerships, (most) sales people, etc. We'd probably be better of as a society paying these people to do nothing than to do what they do now; we'd be eve…

Credit cards definitely provide value, the anti-every-using-credit crowd seems to not understand how they work. If my pet ever needs thousands of dollars of emergency vet care, I can now pay for that using my credit, and then spread my payment of that bill over a longer period.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#446

Post by ajsharp » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

This is wonderfully concise and spot-on. With respect to the American health care system, it's painfully accurate. An unbelievable amount of economic activity in the US health care system ultimately boils down to a whole lot of ceremony in order to fit a square peg into a medical billing code sized hole.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#447

Post by gleech » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

mumin-abu-jamal wrote: post #88

ekianjo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a bleak perspective on things. As human beings we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food, and we ha e never had as much disposable income as now to be able to enjoy more things out of work. And your view can be easily reverted. We have never had as many interesting jobs as now. And centuries before us you had to do what your parents did and you had a miserable life any…

"we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food" We actually have less free time compared to hunter-gatherers. http://rewild.info/in-depth/leisure.html

This "original affluent society" hypothesis is much-promoted but much of it just isn't true.

Lee's numbers explicitly counted only the initial foraging of the mongongo nuts, i.e. none of the food processing, firewood gathering or tool maintenance. After adjusting for these, the average !Kung work week is at least 50 hours and probably more. See:

http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-rev...

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#448

Post by drdeadringer » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #314

Jaruzel wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that these jobs are bullshit jobs, it's that commonly they are wrapped up in bullshit procedures . These procedures typically appear when there's an initiative to reduce costs. The easiest and cheapest way to employ an unskilled person to do a skilled job is to hand them a book of 'procedures' on their first day and say "Everything you need to do and know is in this Book". No time consuming cross-training re…

I feel like even this is being optimistic about the prospects of the book. The idea of The Book is appealing, until someone tries to actually write the stupid thing. Anyone who has ever tried to write any sort of unskilled user facing documentation realizes the cost and training it takes to produce a high quality manual, which naturally the company won't want to pay for, so now you have a half-assed barely legible "B…

I'm reminded of procedures in the [US] defense industry. A "good step" in a given procedure would be absolutely clear in mind-numbing detail. "Pretend you're writing for a sailor" may be half a joke but it is also very real; sometimes word does get back to you about how something was unclear and a piece of equipment got buggered [or whatever], you look at the section in question, and all you can think is "How can you fuck this up?" but yes a pair of sailors in the Pacific did and now you have to make Sesame Street even easier to understand.

No offense to any of our sailors intended, and this is also true for civilians. You won't necessarily have The Expert or The Author right there during execution, for example.

Also on top of that: sometimes the procedures really are hosed [first draft going live, change the test at the last minute, whatever] and deliberation has to be made until you can rewrite the step for clarity//accuracy//reality and move along. Bring lots of red pens, bring more than you need because you'll burn through all of them.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#449

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:13 PM UTC

ksdale wrote: post #376

CalRobert wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had a kid, and I understand this idea completely. I like being a parent but among other things, it means that major life decisions are MUCH more constrained. Want to live somewhere else? Hope the schools are decent. Want to live in the city? Hope you can afford a bigger flat. Want to go on a holiday? Hope you're ok with a pissed off kid (and neighbours) on a flight, or lots of time spent entertaining them on a…

Yeah definitely, I didn't mean to be flippant about the amount of time it takes to raise a child, I have 3 myself, just that people don't hesitate to give up a similar amount of time to a job they don't care about, so I don't think it's really about freedom, it's really about priorities. My wife and I own our own business so we're both home with the kids. For my own "freedom", working from home has been far more posi…

Can you elaborate? Or message me? I suspect we have similar mindsets.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#450

Post by ksdale » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

ionwake wrote: post #437

ksdale wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah definitely, I didn't mean to be flippant about the amount of time it takes to raise a child, I have 3 myself, just that people don't hesitate to give up a similar amount of time to a job they don't care about, so I don't think it's really about freedom, it's really about priorities. My wife and I own our own business so we're both home with the kids. For my own "freedom", working from home has been far more posi…

I could be wrong but I believe homeschooling reduces the ability of the children to experience social situations which have an impact later on with their development

This was a major concern for us, but the more I think about it, the less concerned I get.

What I remember from school is a lot of social status competitions that weren't great for self esteem or regular adult life. I was generally popular and considered a nice guy in school and I still cringe at the way I behaved as a young adult. Part of that is just growing up, but a large part of it is that learning how to be very social in high school makes you kind of a jackass by normal adult standards.

Over my life I've also met a lot of homeschooled kids who seem "weird" compared to their peers because they act more like adults than children. The half dozen or so homeschooled kids I knew both as kids and adults have all become well adjusted adults, including the "weirdest" ones. I can remember as a kid thinking to myself how weird they were, and now I'm embarrassed for having been so judgmental as they turned out just fine.

And nothing I hear from friends or relatives with kids in school makes me feel like the kids are missing much by being at home. The same people who suggest that homeschooling hinders social development have practically monthly stories about bullying and conflicts with teachers and social cliques and it sounds like a lot of stress to subject a 6 year old to.

I agree completely that it's important that kids learn social skills but I think it's plausible that public school doesn't provide a better environment for that than home.

In any case, this is becoming less of a problem as the internet enables us to find lots of opportunities for kids to get together with other homeschoolers for sports, hikes, clubs, etc.