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The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

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441–450 of 461 posts

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#441
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done this. I have a whole collection of over-the-ear ear-protection. I can still hear my co-workers. It also made my tinnitus worse. Thanks though.

'It also made my tinnitus worse.' I've found any earplug or headphone option will make my tinnitus worse - sometimes days afterwards. I explain my tinnitus to non-sufferers as being on the threshold of noise intolerance 24/7. I'm surprised there hasn't been a lawsuit against any of these companies that expect employees to damage their health just so they can save on floorspace?

>I explain my tinnitus to non-sufferers

I thought everyone has it.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we come from different backgrounds. Personally, I've never met a person who liked the idea of open-plan offices - and this includes all managers. Of course they choose the best places for themselves to keep the maximum level of privacy possible. As for the CEO - I can't imagine he could say "we're going to squeeze you all against your will to improve the bottom line." He had to say the usual bs, whether he be…

Did you read my comment? How would the CEO be squeezing people for the bottom line? The company already owned the building, and even after the open plan remodel, they put the same number of workers into the same square feet of floor space. I don’t understand your comment at all. What bottom line were they improving by paying $14MM to take down pre-existing privacy features, while not increasing worker density per squ…

Yes, I fully understand your point. Also, I worked in top- and middle-level management and one thing you can be sure is that the way you present things happening in the company is of utmost importance. And I don't know any reasonable manager who doesn't care about money. It's possible that the CEO in question was an exception but in most companies remodeling the already owned office to open plan was an excuse to squeeze in more people, introduce desk sharing and other disruptive inventions.

I'm curious about the future of the company you mention. I bet that when hard times come, the fountains and the rest will go away, while the open plan is going to stay.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#443
post #6

The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering, which is my current situation. Even when soccer is over, you have to contend with people playing grab-ass all over the office, or jerks (like me) with annoyingly loud keyboards. The modicum of utility of me "jumping into a conversation" really goes out the w…

The it is cheaper argument works because the savings are short term, easy to quantify and the person making the open office decision can easily claim credit for them while the costs are long term, hard to quantify and difficult to assign directly to the decision for an open office.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#444
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and what kills me is how ubiquitous tellocomms are for multi-site corps. I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where everyone was at their desk, headphones on and each was playing the mute/unmute game in order to not blast everyone else on the meeting with the surrounding noise. Then, given all that, you get the coworker two seats down Slacking you. If you're Slacking folks within 10 seconds walking di…

Then, given all that, you get the coworker two seats down Slacking you. If you're Slacking folks within 10 seconds walking distance then what's the point of being in the office at all. I have a coworker within ONE second of me, I can lean back a few inches and tap them on the shoulder. And I do, frequently, when they send me a 1:1 slack message. "What's up?" "Oh I had a question for you in Slack" "I'm three feet away…

You are part of the problem, disturbing the whole room for no reason.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read my comment? How would the CEO be squeezing people for the bottom line? The company already owned the building, and even after the open plan remodel, they put the same number of workers into the same square feet of floor space. I don’t understand your comment at all. What bottom line were they improving by paying $14MM to take down pre-existing privacy features, while not increasing worker density per squ…

Yes, I fully understand your point. Also, I worked in top- and middle-level management and one thing you can be sure is that the way you present things happening in the company is of utmost importance. And I don't know any reasonable manager who doesn't care about money. It's possible that the CEO in question was an exception but in most companies remodeling the already owned office to open plan was an excuse to sque…

> “but in most companies remodeling the already owned office to open plan was an excuse to squeeze in more people, introduce desk sharing and other disruptive inventions.”

It still seems like you didn’t fully read my comment. This has not been my experience at all. Most companies choose open floor plans because they superficially look trendy and because it is a cargo cult copy of what Facebook & trendy start-ups do. They are even happy to spend more money on this type of floor plan.

You keep asserting that companies are very budget conscious when it comes to real estate expenditures, but this doesn’t match reality, and you’re still not addressing the bigger point of stupid corporate spending on fountains, roof decks, parties, etc., which totally contradicts your point of view.

> “the fountains and the rest will go away, while the open plan is going to stay.”

This makes no sense. I’m not even sure you understand how real estate works. You don’t make money by removing a fountain or a roof deck you previously paid to install. You just lose more money if you want it removed or remodeled. If you fall on hard times, you’re absolutely not spending money to pay construction workers to remove physical features of the office. I can’t begin to describe what a naive understanding of office real estate you project.

Also, any theories we might come up with about open plan office choices have to be good theories when the company has lots of money, not just when it’s having hard times, because tons of perfectly profitable companies that can easily and trivially afford to pay for whatever office space they want are still irrationally choosing open plan spaces (which destroy productivity and make workers unhappy) even when any cost savings from doing so would be entirely trivial compared with billions and billions of net income.

The idea that managers in those cases are simultaneously so unconcerned about money that they will throw lavish parties, spend millions on unnecessary office decor, roof decks, etc., and yet also act deeply concerned over a few million of extra rent to get a large enough space for private offices ... it obviously refutes what you’re saying.

The faux concern offer real estate cost obviously is just for show, as a pretext for the overtly political reasons to choose open plan layouts.

You seem to think companies try to save money at all costs, and see open floor plans as a necessary evil to cut costs.

Company spending behavior contradicts that claim. Companies clearly and obviously do not see open floor plans as a necessary evil. Not at all.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#446
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All sales people are extroverts and most managers are. Most programmers are introverts. Guess which group likes open offices? This is not my experience at all. From what I see, most programmers these days are definitely extroverts, if they're under the age of ~35.

What happened to introverts?

I'm guessing they're still there, but they're being crowded out by extroverts. The programming field is a lot larger now than it was in the 80s.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#447
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thrive in hybrid environment. I go to office for half the day, while other half the day I either work from home, or in a coffee place or somewhere else where I can be in the zone for hours. But the downside is I’m a workaholic. I spend too many hours working.

Can’t do this. The moment I introduce work at home, I have a much harder time not thinking about work.

The thing about work at home, you need a separate room in the house with a closed door that feels like an office. I’m fortunate enough (thank you Seattle) to afford something in the outskirts that lets me have a room dedicated to work.

When I’m in the “work room” I work, otherwise I don’t. I think the brain associates different spaces with different modes of thinking.

I can’t get jack shit done at the office other than lots of meetings. To do real coding work, I have to remove people from my surrounding.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laser eye surgery is a fantastic choice as well, tbh.

Laser eye surgery is a fantastic choice for many people, especially people who are nearsighted, under 40, and don't have any contraindications. It's less effective[1] and riskier[2] for farsightedness, and there's only so much it can do for presbyopia. It's also riskier for people who have autoimmune disorders, immune deficiencies, diabetes, or dry eyes. [1] https://www.la-sight.com/services/lasik/lasik-results/ [2]…

It's also great for correcting astigmatism. The nearsightedness that I got corrected was reasonably well managed by glasses, but my astigmatism was compensated for by my brain. I got noticeably more well-coordinated after laser eye surgery freed up visual processing ability this way, and I've heard other anecdotal evidence of this phenomena as well.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#449
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'It also made my tinnitus worse.' I've found any earplug or headphone option will make my tinnitus worse - sometimes days afterwards. I explain my tinnitus to non-sufferers as being on the threshold of noise intolerance 24/7. I'm surprised there hasn't been a lawsuit against any of these companies that expect employees to damage their health just so they can save on floorspace?

>I explain my tinnitus to non-sufferers I thought everyone has it.

Nope. Mine developed a couple of years ago.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#450
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here! I had very faint tinnitus (from headphones in the office all day), but after we moved offices (open office space) and I started wearing earplugs UNDER my hearing protection earmuffs, my tinnitus started going wild. I think it's because when you double-stuff like I did, the only thing you can hear at that point is the ringing in your ears (and high heels on concrete floors). My brain seemed to lock in on th…

Has it gotten any better since? I feel like mine has on a given day but it actually feels worse than ever before when I wear earplugs.

It's gotten better, but not gone away. I've worked hard on identifying the things that bring it on and avoiding them.

When I wear earplugs, the tinnitus is more prominent, so after I take them out, my brain is kind of "latched" on to it for a while.

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