Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

441–450 of 546 posts

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#441

Post by zaarn »

mcguire wrote: post #304
crote wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal…

That's an interesting (and amusing) picture, but I'd expect many more incidents of a "gently rising metal barrier" causing a vehicle to roll over.

The metal barriers are usually quite safe and designed to absorb a lot of energy. (Plus rolling over is safer than crashing into concrete)

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#442

Post by dannyfraser »

golfer wrote: post #349
ams6110 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the Toyota electronic throttle "unintended acceleration" accidents were in the news, the software was described as a "big bowl of spaghetti" but the NTSB ultimately determined that it was not the cause of the problems. It was drivers using the wrong pedal.

Wrong pedal? How about faulty pedal. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/20...

Malcolm Gladwell's podcast had a good summary of the issue, including the pedal confusion.

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#443

Post by TeMPOraL »

JimmyAustin wrote: post #435
TeMPOraL wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is the right way to handle these updates? Avoid doing them in the first place? It's not like bit rot is - or should be - a problem for cars. It's a problem specific to the Internet-connected software ecosystem, which a car shouldn't be a part of. So basically: develop software, test the shit out of it, then release. If you happen to find some critical problem later on that is fixable with software, by all m…

Tesla does test the shit out of it before they release a patch. The problem is that users expectations of the systems performance suddenly get out of sync with what the car is going to do. Part of me wonders if there should be a very quick, unskipable, animated, easy to understand explanation of the patch notes before you can drive when they make material changes to core driving functionality.

I'd vote in favor of such explanation, though this alone may not be enough to cancel out possibly thousands of hours of experience with the previous system behavior.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#444

Post by lozenge »

utopcell wrote: post #362
aero142 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Musk strongly believes that flipping the switch to sacrifice 1 and save 5 in the trolley problem is clearly the correct choice. If the numbers show that less people die with self driving cars than with them, then that is the right choice. I suspect he even believes that the people that die along the way in the transitional periods are worth it if that is what it takes to save hundreds of thousands of lives in…

Who is going to report these statistics ? Would you trust such a statement coming out of Tesla right now ?

Unfortunately the "balance" in the news means they will keep reporting Tesla's statements and will rarely point out how dishonest they have been in the past.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#445

Post by Ntrails »

falcolas wrote: post #97
Animats wrote: post #42

NTSB: • At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph. • At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle. • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle. • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increas…

One more thing to note - anecdotal evidence indicates that Tesla cars did not attempt to center within a lane prior to an OTA update, after which multiple cars exhibited this "centering" action into gore sections (and thus required manual input to avoid an incident) on video. To me, that this behavior was added via an update makes it even harder to predict - your car can pass a particular section of road without inci…

> Humans are generally quite poor at responding to unexpected behavior changes such as this.

I know what you mean, once you truly start to trust someone else to do a job you simply stop giving it any attention. It's being handled. So you maybe hover a bit at first, keep an eye, generally interfere. Once that stage is over, you just do other things safe in the knowledge that someone else is competently handling the task. Until it blows up in your face.

This level of autopilot legitimately terrifies me. Not because it's bad, but because of the way it will make the humans who are supposed to still be responsible stop paying attention

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#446

Post by letsgetphysITal »

JimmyAustin wrote: post #435
TeMPOraL wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is the right way to handle these updates? Avoid doing them in the first place? It's not like bit rot is - or should be - a problem for cars. It's a problem specific to the Internet-connected software ecosystem, which a car shouldn't be a part of. So basically: develop software, test the shit out of it, then release. If you happen to find some critical problem later on that is fixable with software, by all m…

Tesla does test the shit out of it before they release a patch. The problem is that users expectations of the systems performance suddenly get out of sync with what the car is going to do. Part of me wonders if there should be a very quick, unskipable, animated, easy to understand explanation of the patch notes before you can drive when they make material changes to core driving functionality.

While using Autopilot (Big A), there should be a loud klaxon every 30 seconds followed by a notification "CHECK ROAD CONDITIONS" and "REMAIN ENGAGED WITH DRIVING" in the same urgent tone of an aircraft autopilot (small a) warning system.

Tesla did make a mistake calling it Autopilot, but only because regular folk don't understand that aircraft autopilot is literally a heading, altitude, and speed, and will not make any correction for fault. Aircraft autopilot will fly you straight into a mountain if one happens to be in the way.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#447

Post by metafunctor »

jacquesm wrote: post #436
metafunctor wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these kinds of lane-dividers not painted with heavy yellow diagonal stripes in the US? Is the divider equipped with reflective material and/or lights to make sure drivers notice it? Is the divider actually necessary, or could it be replaced with gravel so people don't need to hit a concrete wall when they make a mistake? I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. Autopilot needs to be fix…

> I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. I've driven in almost all countries in the union and I'm sure that and worse is readily available in multiple EU countries. While it's true that the EU subsidizes a lot of road construction local conditions (materials quality, theft, sloppy contractors) have a huge impact on road and markings quality.

Hmm, "possible" was probably too strong of a word. Of course it's possible.

However, I've driven a significant number of hours in Spain, Switzerland, Germany, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and I wouldn't say that this kind of concrete divider is "readily available" as a normal part of a high-speed road, lacking the high-visibility markings I outlined in the post above, year after year as a normal fixture. In fact, I don't remember ever once seeing a concrete divider like this in the EU, even temporarily, but please prove me wrong (and maybe we can tell them to fix it!).

At highway speeds, lane dividers are only used when there is a lane traveling in the opposing direction right next to you. There is no point in concrete dividers if all the traffic is traveling in the same direction. At highway speeds, opposing lanes should be divided by a lot of open space and metal fences that don't kill you when you hit them.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#448

Post by letsgetphysITal »

Shivetya wrote: post #243
MBCook wrote: post #3

“[Driver’s] hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash. Tesla has said that Huang received warnings to put his hands on the wheel, but according to the NTSB, these warnings came more than 15 minutes before the crash.” This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. What they said here was, for all intents and purposes, a flat out lie. Clearly…

https://www.tesla.com/autopilot and best of all, guess what Tesla shows on that landing page. A driver with their hands in their lap

They do expect you to change that posture if Autopilot does something you think is dangerous, though. Wandering out of lane uninitiated (lane change indication, for example) and accelerating towards a barrier would likely count as one of those situations.

I've yet to see an incident so far where a human driver, properly engaged with the driving experience and road conditions as they should be when in charge of a vehicle, couldn't have taken action and prevented the accident. There were 7 seconds between the beginning of the maneuver and impact; Human reaction time (including taking action) is typically 0.5 seconds. That leaves 6.5 seconds to correct steering or apply the brake, bearing in mind that Autopilot will always relinquish control in either situation.

Not apologising for Tesla, they need to sort out this edge case, but that's exactly what it was and exactly why the driver is supposed to remain engaged.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#449

Post by pavedwalden »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #421
lscotte wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, Tesla doesn't have auto emergency braking? Even my Kia has that - adaptive cruise for following cars, auto emergency braking for stationary objects (and when the car in front of you suddenly slows down). Yeah, I'll keep my Kia...

My 2015 S70D (AP1 presumably) does start complaining if it thinks I'm about to collide with a stationary vehicle. Whether it would actually stop the car is not something I have had the nerve to test. Perhaps I should find a deserted car park and put out some cardboard boxes and see what happens. The problem is that cardboard doesn't reflect radar well.

Could you wrap the cardboard in aluminum foil?

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#450

Post by bobsil1 »

jakelarkin wrote: post #162
cornholio wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> driving in an uncontrolled environment is really a general AI problem Is it? Unless you are talking about NASCAR, an adversarial game where rational agents compete for road space, driving is essentially a physics problem: maintain a speed and direction that does not exceed the vehicle's ability to correct them so as to avoid any stationary or mobile obstacle. In this case, the vehicle was accelerated to a speed (72…

you can break it down to various expert-system subproblems - perfect cv image classification (+ low visibility ) - anticipating behavior of bikers, children, elderly, animals, near roads - responding to human non-verbal communication - responding appropriately to never before seen obstacles/scenarios without being a nuisance on the road or endangering other drivers - vehicle dynamics (+ in rain, ice, snow, emergency…

Yep. Broad world model, physics, common sense, human communication, prediction, reasoning. Waymo’s low-level stack on hi-res map rails can’t replace human drivers.
Post reply on HN